Timing and Rhythm

[Pugilistic]

While this may be obvious in hindsight and it is something I have always known the importance of, it hasn't been until recently that I truly felt the significance of these two elements of fighting: Timing and Rhythm. To me it seems these two things go together and these two play out as equalizers or supplements to more natural attributes such as power and speed.

People may think Mayweather lands those lead right hands because of his speed, but it's all timing. He simply has better timing than his opponents and he fires punches "off-beat." They don't see it coming because they don't expect Floyd to throw when he does. Floyd explains this on one of the In the Ring with Smitty series. Hopkins' lecture to Rashad Evans and Ward's episode of In the Ring also expand on this concept. My trainer also repeatedly drills this idea into my head.

Another great example of this is the very brief footage I have seen of Zou Shiming sparring Pacquiao. Since Shiming is a lighter guy and very fast, I thought his speed would pose somewhat of a challenge to Manny but from what I saw, Pac timed him with a jab everytime he tried to make a move. Shiming couldn't do shit. Granted it was very short footage, but it really drove home the point for me.

While I get this concept on a cognitive level, truly getting it and using it practice has been difficult. After watching Floyd's episode of In the Ring, I have been able to emulate the off rhythm right hand to some success against guys less experienced than me. I also think timing when I jab and it has increased my connect rate on my jab a bit. But of course, I want to be better.

I'm wondering what kind of specific drills or exercises I can do to improve my timing and to work on my rhythm to be less predictable. My trainer also works on my timing on the mitts as well. On my own I work on the double end bag and constantly imagine that I'm timing a guy while shadowboxing and hitting the heavybag.

Any other tips? And how does Floyd have such good timing? I'm sure some of it is his natural talent but I'm curious what kind of exercises he does for it.

 

[Discipulus]

I'd love to see that short clip of Shiming and Pacquiao if you have it.

As far as drills, you might try the partnered coin-catching that Kostya Tszyu does in this video.



The ball-and-string hats that Sinister made for his guys might be a fun way to work on your timing as well, in addition to standard training tools like the speed bag (a device I'm only now starting to appreciate) and the double-end bag.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Do you mean "Off beat" as in; throwing a punch without the corresponding footwork? I think I can visualize what you are saying but I don't think I know it explicitly enough to comment. I look forward to other people's discussions on this topic and any vids people may find on it.

 

[Discipulus]

Do you mean "Off beat" as in; throwing a punch without the corresponding footwork? I think I can visualize what you are saying but I don't think I know it explicitly enough to comment. I look forward to other people's discussions on this topic and any vids people may find on it.

He means fighting with broken rhythm. Some punches slow, some punches fast, some thrown with planted feet and some while moving. Wilson Pitts advised me to play some rhythmic jazz or Latin music over some fight footage and watch the fighters as they seem to fall into a steady 4/4 rhythm. Many do, without even realizing it. The ones who break away from that rhythm are fighting "off beat," and they're a lot harder to time.

Edit: Here's an example for you. Play these two videos simultaneously, muting the sound for the fight. One of these men fights with a clear rhythm to his movements, like a dancer. He looks smoother and more fluid at times, and falls into the beat of the music. The other seems awkward, and often moves and strikes in a stuttering, stop-and-start manner. See which one works better.

 

[snizzar]

I'm glad you mentioned that tidbit about Manny's timing. I feel like people always say how Manny has a really awkward style and that coupled with his speed is what enables him to land his punches, which causes people to overlook his timing ability. Honestly, to survive at the highest level of boxing you have to have SIGNIFICANTLY better timing than the better part of the population. You'd never be able to land an effective counter or evade combinations without solid timing.

Just wanted to get that off my chest haha.

 

[Pugilistic]

I'd love to see that short clip of Shiming and Pacquiao if you have it.

As far as drills, you might try the partnered coin-catching that Kostya Tszyu does in this video.

The ball-and-string hats that Sinister made for his guys might be a fun way to work on your timing as well, in addition to standard training tools like the speed bag (a device I'm only now starting to appreciate) and the double-end bag.

I think it was from 24/7 Pacquiao vs Rios where I saw it. I remember it being a montage of Pac sparring different guys, hence the briefness of the footage. But I clearly recall Zou being stopped in his tracks every time he tried to engage.

I've been meaning to do that coin catching thing for awhile but I forgot. Thanks for reminding me. We actually have the tennis ball and hat thing at my gym so I do work on that. Tricky to get good at.

Might try to get into salsa again after reading your other post.

 

[shpboris]

I really like the way this guy explains the rhythm and why it is important.
Probably the best explanation on the topic that I have came across ...

Start watching from 2:19
Around 3:20 the guy starts to talk about rhythm.


[YT]XswLo1tZ8G8[/YT]

 

[panamaican]

^^^

That is a good video (at least the recommended section was - which is all I watched).

 

[SummerStriker]

Pugilistic, one of the main tools I use as a big guy who is fast for his size, is I pretend to be slower than I am. I don't bounce on my toes and if I throw a jab without a set up, I protect myself with footwork but throw it maybe 50-75% of full speed, but stiff.

It makes the other guy think, "I can go faster than him any time I want," which isn't true.

You can break the rhythm with speed by setting up a slow rhythm. The 1-2 combo is 1 and 2. The 1-1-2 combo is 1 and 1 and 2. If you can convince the other guy that this is your actual speed, all you have to do to break rhythm is throw like you mean it.

The other way is to set a beat with your hands at full speed, and then break the rhythm with feints by throwing half movements. I don't like to resort to this method unless the first one isn't working, because it reveals too much about yourself and leaves you fewer places to go.

 

[shpboris]

I believe rhythm is one of the most overlooked concepts in fighting.

To me what distinguish a good and experienced fighter from not so skilled\beginner fighter is having a rhythm.

Experienced fighters look like they have their signature rhythm. Their fighting is a fluid motion. Like dancing.

When beginners go like "Ok, I will throw a jab. Now I will try to move a little bit. Now I will throw a double jab and then right hand". Kind of like distinct bursts of activity. Not one fluid motion. Usually looks awkward and too much thinking.

 

[Discipulus]

I believe rhythm is one of the most overlooked concepts in fighting.

To me what distinguish a good and experienced fighter from not so skilled\beginner fighter is having a rhythm.

Experienced fighters look like they have their signature rhythm. Their fighting is a fluid motion. Like dancing.

When beginners go like "Ok, I will throw a jab. Now I will try to move a little bit. Now I will throw a double jab and then right hand". Kind of like distinct bursts of activity. Not one fluid motion. Usually looks awkward and too much thinking.

I disagree. The best fighters are the ones who break rhythm in order to surprise the opponent. Floyd might move with the grace of a dancer, but he'll stutter and start to land those quick lead rights and jabs he loves so much. He has a rhythm, but it's purpose is to be broken. He can lull his opponents in with that rhythm, letting them think they can time him, only to surprise them by switching it up.

Watch that video I posted. Zab is the more rhythmic fighter, but Tszyu is the better boxer.

 

[Fire of Youth]

He means fighting with broken rhythm. Some punches slow, some punches fast, some thrown with planted feet and some while moving. Wilson Pitts advised me to play some rhythmic jazz or Latin music over some fight footage and watch the fighters as they seem to fall into a steady 4/4 rhythm. Many do, without even realizing it. The ones who break away from that rhythm are fighting "off beat," and they're a lot harder to time.

Thanks. That clears it up. It makes sense to have the opponent expect one rhythm and then throw something outside that rhythm to get it to land. Against someone who knows how I fight quite well, I sometimes gradually slow my strikes down (so they don't notice it) and then speed back up for my one good KO punch. It usually lands clean as soap.

 

[Discipulus]

That makes me think of Rigondeaux, who pretty much shadowboxes in front of his opponents at half-speed, to mess with their sense of distance (is he threatening me with those punches or not?) and timing. He'll extend his right hand slow as anything, and of course the only punch that could possibly come next is the left hook, but it still lands cleanly, because he lulls people to sleep with one rhythm only to surprise them with another.

 

[WillW]

Very good fight.

Caught Zab on the slip.

Pugilistic, one of the main tools I use as a big guy who is fast for his size, is I pretend to be slower than I am. I don't bounce on my toes and if I throw a jab without a set up, I protect myself with footwork but throw it maybe 50-75% of full speed, but stiff.
.

Love this. Ill try to do this ever time Im sparring someone for the first time. Start out slow then try to surprise them at the right time.

 

[SummerStriker]

Love this. Ill try to do this ever time Im sparring someone for the first time. Start out slow then try to surprise them at the right time.

Haha, let me know how it works out for you.

 

[ssullivan80]

The ball-and-string hats that Sinister made for his guys might be a fun way to work on your timing as well, in addition to standard training tools like the speed bag (a device I'm only now starting to appreciate) and the double-end bag.

Hah, those are some cool drills. Thanks for sharing....... The 3 coins he tosses and catches. That's tough, just tried...... as my buddy walked past my office and thought I was having a seizure.

"ball and string hats"- now im curious, reference that thread if you can.

I like the drill you see Rigo and Diaz use with the racquetballs, as it incorporates footwork with the timing/reflexes. (someone can find a video).

 

[Stillw1ll]

That makes me think of Rigondeaux, who pretty much shadowboxes in front of his opponents at half-speed, to mess with their sense of distance (is he threatening me with those punches or not?) and timing. He'll extend his right hand slow as anything, and of course the only punch that could possibly come next is the left hook, but it still lands cleanly, because he lulls people to sleep with one rhythm only to surprise them with another.

He does that to bait his opponent to try and counter so he can counter their counter. Its not a rhythm thing. Ward does the same thing. Also throws a nice elbow.

 

[ssullivan80]

He does that to bait his opponent to try and counter so he can counter their counter. Its not a rhythm thing. Ward does the same thing.

How's it not a rhythm thing? using a distraction to bait a guy, in order to counter their counter........ sounds a lot like a rhythm/timing thing. The shadow punches
= broken rhythm, the timing = the counter. Maybe were just misinterpreting the terminology, as it is a bit vague and timing and rhythm kind of go hand in hand, there interchangeable and could basically mean the same thing, depending on how you interpret it.

 

[Stillw1ll]

I disagree. The best fighters are the ones who break rhythm in order to surprise the opponent. Floyd might move with the grace of a dancer, but he'll stutter and start to land those quick lead rights and jabs he loves so much. He has a rhythm, but it's purpose is to be broken. He can lull his opponents in with that rhythm, letting them think they can time him, only to surprise them by switching it up.

Watch that video I posted. Zab is the more rhythmic fighter, but Tszyu is the better boxer.

Floyd fights without a rhythm on purpose to avoid being timed. SRL, Ali, and countless other ATG's fought with a rhythm. It is just two different styles.

 

[Stillw1ll]

How's it not a rhythm thing? using a distraction to bait a guy, in order to counter their counter........ sounds a lot like a rhythm/timing thing. The shadow punches
= broken rhythm, the timing = the counter. Maybe were just misinterpreting the terminology, as it is a bit vague and timing and rhythm kind of go hand in hand, there interchangeable and could basically mean the same thing, depending on how you interpret it.

timing =/= rhythmn