Thoughts on Priit Mihkelson's system?

[ChickenBrother]

I've heard of this guy over the years but always thought he was an Eduardo Telles wannabe. Telles is super legit but I feel like a lot of his turtle stuff relies on wrestling scrambles that are harder to pull off as a less explosive older guy. Mihkelson's game looks old man friendly.

I know Mihkelson is polarizing. His "retarded panda" position looks like a troll job. But I've been playing with his "hawking" position from turtle and have been having success with it in both gi and nogi. This week I escaped a back take with hooks in from a fellow purple and my BB instructor (who admittedly was "rolling to my level" as he often does). It worked much more cleanly than the traditional escape I've been using, and it got me curious about his other stuff.



EDIT: found this pretty good breakdown of Priit's system on Reddit, and Priit himself responds to some of the critics:

 

[Bos Docken]

Just my take, but "defensive" rolling like this is why I can't take BJJ seriously as a combat art anymore. Being in bad positions with no urgency - That's instilling bad fight habits. The only meaning and utility it has is in a safe matted sport BJJ environment.

I understand guys need to change their style as they get older. and if you only think of BJJ as a game or some eccentric form of exercise, good for you and may you keep on rolling like this for years to your heart's content.

But if you have any thought of BJJ being applicable to fighting or self-defense, you are deluding yourself with this stuff. This will not help you in an altercation. You would build better real world instincts and abilities in a MMA gym, even just hitting bags and pads.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Just my take, but "defensive" rolling like this is why I can't take BJJ seriously as a combat art anymore. Being in bad positions with no urgency - That's instilling bad fight habits. The only meaning and utility it has is in a safe matted sport BJJ environment.

I understand guys need to change their style as they get older. and if you only think of BJJ as a game or some eccentric form of exercise, good for you and may you keep on rolling like this for years to your heart's content.

But if you have any thought of BJJ being applicable to fighting or self-defense, you are deluding yourself with this stuff. This will not help you in an altercation. You would build better real world instincts and abilities in a MMA gym, even just hitting bags and pads.

TBF I'm not completely sold on it yet either but in his defense, I've never heard Mihkelson advocate a purely defensive game - that's just his marketing spin and what he's known for. There's plenty of vids of him chaining defense into sweeps, passes and subs.

His philosophy seems similar to Rickson's i.e. if you have an impenetrable defense, it makes you that much more confident in your offense and you can take more risks. That's intriguing to me because I've found myself adopting a more defensive game as I've gotten older. Despite having a wrestling background, I'm losing scrambles to younger, faster, stronger guys because I can't explode like I used to in my 20's and 30's.

More to the point, I think many grapplers would benefit from a more systematic defense. I don't know if Mihkelson is the best template for that but I think he's addressing a gap that goes neglected at most schools. At my gym, the "move of the day" is almost always a sub, sweep or counterattack. I don't recall ever having a class dedicated to defending a RNC, armbar, heelhook, etc., although that's a critical aspect of grappling.

 

[don't ask]

Just my take, but "defensive" rolling like this is why I can't take BJJ seriously as a combat art anymore. Being in bad positions with no urgency - That's instilling bad fight habits. The only meaning and utility it has is in a safe matted sport BJJ environment.

I understand guys need to change their style as they get older. and if you only think of BJJ as a game or some eccentric form of exercise, good for you and may you keep on rolling like this for years to your heart's content.

But if you have any thought of BJJ being applicable to fighting or self-defense, you are deluding yourself with this stuff. This will not help you in an altercation. You would build better real world instincts and abilities in a MMA gym, even just hitting bags and pads.

Yeah, these are my thoughts exactly. I've tried Priit's stuff before and it worked for me, but it also left my head open for a ferocious beating. Crossover with MMA utility is low.

 

[Angel Flores]

Just my take, but "defensive" rolling like this is why I can't take BJJ seriously as a combat art anymore. Being in bad positions with no urgency - That's instilling bad fight habits. The only meaning and utility it has is in a safe matted sport BJJ environment.

I understand guys need to change their style as they get older. and if you only think of BJJ as a game or some eccentric form of exercise, good for you and may you keep on rolling like this for years to your heart's content.

But if you have any thought of BJJ being applicable to fighting or self-defense, you are deluding yourself with this stuff. This will not help you in an altercation. You would build better real world instincts and abilities in a MMA gym, even just hitting bags and pads.

Yes just hitting bags will get you super ready to escape turtle and mount. That won't delude you at all.

 

[Bos Docken]

Yes just hitting bags will get you super ready to escape turtle and mount. That won't delude you at all.

Hitting bags for rounds regularly will develop punching power and mechanics, as well as high-intensity cardio, plus conditioning for hands and wrists.

All of which is going to be much more useful in an altercation than non-urgent turtle and mount escapes that involve no head protection.

I would even argue you build dangerous habits spending extended time in turtle and mount without consideration for strikes and with low-intensity effort.

Snark all you want, but you're in for a rude awakening if you think stuff like Priit's has any connection with fighting.

BJJ keeps moving further and further away from its roots, but BJJ guys still hang onto the idea that what they are doing is practical. when it is demonstrably not.

 

[Angel Flores]

Hitting bags for rounds regularly will develop punching power and mechanics, as well as high-intensity cardio, plus conditioning for hands and wrists.

All of which is going to be much more useful in an altercation than non-urgent turtle and mount escapes that involve no head protection.

I would even argue you build dangerous habits spending extended time in turtle and mount without consideration for strikes and with low-intensity effort.

Snark all you want, but you're in for a rude awakening if you think stuff like Priit's has any connection with fighting.

BJJ keeps moving further and further away from its roots, but BJJ guys still hang onto the idea that what they are doing is practical. when it is demonstrably not.

No you just refuse to listen when you're told over and over that people know the difference between sport and street fighting. And like I said, just hitting bags leaves a million different holes in your game too. But people like you only like putting BJJ under a microscope. When someone practices sport boxing and do techniques like Floyd's shoulder roll, I never hear anyone crying themselves to sleep about how non practical it is for a real fight. About how you will get double legged quickly or get your legged kicked off while you do your shoulder roll. No complaints about how it's not a perfect technique for every single situation imaginable in a fight. About how big gloves help the punches slide off more easily. Why? Because people know it's for sport boxing. Show me where Priit says he wants his techniques that leave his head open for strikes to be used in MMA or the streets. I'll wait. And mount escapes etc also build cardio and strengthen your body for grappling too. And this hypothetical altercation that you think hitting bags will help you with is a grappling free altercation I am guessing. How convenient. When a BJJ guy practices only grappling you hear but but but what about strikes?? When a guy just hits bags, let's just assume his opponent only strikes . And let's pretend that the bag hits back and teaches you defense too and pretend the guy just stands there during the fight . For the record, I don't have anything against bags. I am just showing how easy it is to critique something and label it impractical if it doesn't cover every single hole imaginable. Someone just posted a video earlier here of a guy that wrestles off his knees. Why aren't you in that thread saying oh that wouldn't work on the mean streets! He would get soccer kicked into oblivion! Lol

 

[Bos Docken]

No you just refuse to listen when you're told over and over that people know the difference between sport and street fighting. And like I said, just hitting bags leaves a million different holes in your game too. But people like you only like putting BJJ under a microscope. When someone practices sport boxing and do techniques like Floyd's shoulder roll, I never hear anyone crying themselves to sleep about how non practical it is for a real fight. About how you will get double legged quickly or get your legged kicked off while you do your shoulder roll. No complaints about how it's not a perfect technique for every single situation imaginable in a fight. About how big gloves help the punches slide off more easily. Why? Because people know it's for sport boxing. Show me where Priit says he wants his techniques that leave his head open for strikes to be used in MMA or the streets. I'll wait. And mount escapes etc also build cardio and strengthen your body for grappling too. And this hypothetical altercation that you think hitting bags will help you with is a grappling free altercation I am guessing. How convenient. When a BJJ guy practices only grappling you hear but but but what about strikes?? When a guy just hits bags, let's just assume his opponent only strikes . And let's pretend that the bag hits back and teaches you defense too and pretend the guy just stands there during the fight . For the record, I don't have anything against bags. I am just showing how easy it is to critique something and label it impractical if it doesn't cover every single hole imaginable.

Guess I touched a nerve, huh? Talk about an emotional reaction.

There's too much in this verbal eruption to address, and it doesn't seem like you'd take it in good faith anyway.

I'd advise you to take a breath. Maybe take a break from the internet.

Could it be there's uncomfortable truth in what I posted? Something to think about.

 

[Angel Flores]

Guess I touched a nerve, huh? Talk about an emotional reaction.

There's too much in this verbal eruption to address, and it doesn't seem like you'd take it in good faith anyway.

I'd advise you to take a breath. Maybe take a break from the internet.

Could it be there's uncomfortable truth in what I posted? Something to think about.

Lol point out the moment where my emotion just jumped off the screen. I literally just typed a response. And I can do the exact same thing. Maybe I hit a nerve and told you some uncomfortable truths which is why you're tapping out on this convo with me? Calm down man! Your veins are gonna pop from all the emotion! See that was easy.

 

[rmongler]

I've heard of this guy over the years but always thought he was an Eduardo Telles wannabe. Telles is super legit but I feel like a lot of his turtle stuff relies on wrestling scrambles that are harder to pull off as a less explosive older guy. Mihkelson's game looks old man friendly.

I know Mihkelson is polarizing. His "retarded panda" position looks like a troll job. But I've been playing with his "hawking" position from turtle and have been having success with it in both gi and nogi. This week I escaped a back take with hooks in from a fellow purple and my BB instructor (who admittedly was "rolling to my level" as he often does). It worked much more cleanly than the traditional escape I've been using, and it got me curious about his other stuff.



EDIT: found this pretty good breakdown of Priit's system on Reddit, and Priit himself responds to some of the critics:

I like Priit and he has put a lot of good material out there over the years, things i've cribbed ideas from. I think it is good for a martial tradition to always have a few guys who are willing to put time into less common areas of concern. Their game might not be your game, but you can see the better ideas they discover through trial and error, and use it to refine your own training with regards to those areas.

My main comment on this particular matter would be that the number one move from turtle is standing to your feet. Everything else comes in when the other guy tries to stop you from escaping. If he can't stop your from escaping, then everything else becomes largely academic.

Practicing your riding and escapes is of primary importance when it comes to groundfighting in general, it all hangs on that balance.

 

[ahheadlock]

His turtle stuff helped me. I'm an old heavyweight, trying to explode out or granby roll or something is not my game. I need to recover guard or sweep, and after spending some time incorporating some of his stuff into my turtle - it's definitely helped me survive longer and be able to do those things.

Would I do it in a street fight? no

 

[ChickenBrother]

I like Priit and he has put a lot of good material out there over the years, things i've cribbed ideas from. I think it is good for a martial tradition to always have a few guys who are willing to put time into less common areas of concern. Their game might not be your game, but you can see the better ideas they discover through trial and error, and use it to refine your own training with regards to those areas.

My main comment on this particular matter would be that the number one move from turtle is standing to your feet. Everything else comes in when the other guy tries to stop you from escaping. If he can't stop your from escaping, then everything else becomes largely academic.

Practicing your riding and escapes is of primary importance when it comes to groundfighting in general, it all hangs on that balance.

Agree 100%. I'll always stand back up if possible and if I'm in turtle in the first place, it's because I was about to get my guard passed or am under a guy who's good at riding and/or is too damn big and strong for me to stand up, sit out or granby away from immediately. I like Mihkelson's principle of going 1 on 1 (not 2 on 1) on other guy's hands to deny body or head and arm control.

His turtle stuff helped me. I'm an old heavyweight, trying to explode out or granby roll or something is not my game. I need to recover guard or sweep, and after spending some time incorporating some of his stuff into my turtle - it's definitely helped me survive longer and be able to do those things.

Would I do it in a street fight? no

I know the feeling. I'm 170 lbs but am late 40's and can't sit out or explode out like I used to unless other guy sucks at top control. There's also a lot of bigger guys at my gym so I'm usually giving up 10 to 40 lbs or more.

Frankly, I feel like Mihkelson's hawking in particular and maybe running man positions would be practical for both sport grappling and a real fight. An example that comes to mind is Chandler's escape from Oliviera's back control:



I don't want to second guess Chandler because he's a total stud, but he does the traditional escape from back mount with a 2 on1. He also burns a TON of energy standing up and then exploding out. Once he's conceded back mount with hooks in, I wonder if it wouldn't have been more efficient to go to running man, and then hawking to escape (as in the OP vid) and end up in the same place, with much less energy expended.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Used the hawking escape again yesterday rolling with a brown who outweighs me by 40 lbs. That's 3 for 3 this week against upper belts. Worked much more quickly and efficiently than the 2 on1 escape I've been using and was able to scramble on top and go on offense. Definitely adding it to my game. Seated panda still looks ridiculous but now I want to find some vids on grilled chicken and running man and try those out.

 

[Einheri]

I don't like it. There's a purple belt I train with who is a big disciple of this system. It takes a long time to advance position on him, as he is constantly in hyper-defensive mode, but he never escapes and seems to never be in a good position once he is on defense. He is extremely hard to finish though. It's like he just draws out the loss, and I don't see the context where this would be useful. In a sportive context you lose on points; in a Vale Tudo/MMA context you get your face punched to mush; in a street context you get punched, eye gouged, headbutted, et cetera. It just seems overly passive and geared towards not getting submitted in gym rolls. This is just what I have seen, happy to be corrected.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I don't like it. There's a purple belt I train with who is a big disciple of this system. It takes a long time to advance position on him, as he is constantly in hyper-defensive mode, but he never escapes and seems to never be in a good position once he is on defense. He is extremely hard to finish though. It's like he just draws out the loss, and I don't seen the context where this would be useful. In a sportive context you lose on points; in a Vale Tudo/MMA context you get your face punched to mush; in a street context you get punched, eye gouged, headbutted, et cetera. It just seems overly passive and geared towards not getting submitted in gym rolls. This is just what I have seen, happy to be corrected.

Does the guy roll the same way with lower belts or is he just using the defensive style to survive against higher belts? As a purple with a wrestling and Judo background, I have a reputation at my gym of being "hard to submit." I've been adopting a more defensive style lately because I've been rolling with a lot of younger, heavier higher belts and 3 of the 4 browns I usually roll with (all younger and heavier) beat my ass when they're trying to put it on. Against them I usually try to achieve top position and attempt offense without getting swept for as long as I can. But I invariably overcommit, get swept and then I'm playing defensively trying to survive and struggling to disengage to get back to my feet or back on top. Against lower belts I don't have this issue because I can usually stay on offense for most of the roll if I want to.

My interest in Mihkelson's stuff is to help me more quickly get out of bad positions so I can go back on offense. So far at least some of his stuff (hawking and keeping arm glued to inside of thigh in turtle to deny hooks) have been helping me do that. And that presumes I'm not able to stand up, peterson roll or granby away, which I always prefer. I have no interest in laying face down ass up working defense only, unless other guy is forcing me to do that, which means my defense isn't adequate to get me out of that position.

 

[Daveb]

I had a 50 yr old brown belt start working his defense system. He became much harder to finish I think it’s an effective style

 

[EndlessCritic]

I must commend Sherdog for a spirited, but balanced debate on this topic.

 

[don't ask]

I don't like it. There's a purple belt I train with who is a big disciple of this system. It takes a long time to advance position on him, as he is constantly in hyper-defensive mode, but he never escapes and seems to never be in a good position once he is on defense. He is extremely hard to finish though. It's like he just draws out the loss, and I don't seen the context where this would be useful. In a sportive context you lose on points; in a Vale Tudo/MMA context you get your face punched to mush; in a street context you get punched, eye gouged, headbutted, et cetera. It just seems overly passive and geared towards not getting submitted in gym rolls. This is just what I have seen, happy to be corrected.

If I remember Jiu-Jitsu University, Saulo lays out his teaching like this:

white - survival
blue - escape
purple - guard
brown - I forget
black - submissions

And it makes sense to me because my training really took off once I was able to be aggressive without getting in trouble. It sounds like your guy might not be making the leap yet.

 

[shunyata]

If I remember Jiu-Jitsu University, Saulo lays out his teaching like this:

white - survival
blue - escape
purple - guard
brown - I forget
black - submissions

And it makes sense to me because my training really took off once I was able to be aggressive without getting in trouble. It sounds like your guy might not be making the leap yet.

Bernardo Faria once said, "when you're winning, attack! when you're losing, attack!"

you need a certain aggression to get out of bad positions, and end up in them less by forcing defensive reactions.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Bernardo Faria once said, "when you're winning, attack! when you're losing, attack!"

you need a certain aggression to get out of bad positions, and end up in them less by forcing defensive reactions.

Hate to give into the cult of John Danaher language, but so much of the game is creating dilemmas for your opponent.