The short "chopping" right hand for a tall guy - video

[ssullivan80]

Sherdoggers, maybe someone can give me an insight or tip on using the short chopping right hand. Being a taller fighter and working more on the outside I have never really developed that short "chopping" right hand. I use my cross well at range and my UC as a counter, but the right hook or "rolling right hand" is not a punch I have ever really got comfortable throwing. I've started working on developing that short right hand in my mid-range and inside. Still, just not comfortable throwing it, but it's improving. I feel like I have a tendency to either "push" my right hand on the inside, or I end up throwing it wide/loopy. Trying to get that "snap/crack" on my right hand on the inside and at mid-range is proving a bit difficult for me. Below is video with a few short clips that may better describe what i am describing, as I was working on using that short right hand. It felt more comfortable on the DE bag than the heavy bags, but still just feels like I am either pushing or looping that right when throwing it at mid/inside range. Either way, maybe one of you can identify something I am missing?

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Like Floyd Sr?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKuiQobQi0

 

[Sinister]

This is a very tricky punch to learn the right technique to. Especially for someone long-limbed. I can't recall from other videos if yours if you have better internal or external rotation...this is something I only really got into within the last year. But take as an example the taller Viking I worked with, he has trouble with circular punches in general because he has better internal rotation (knees tend to point inward) and not so good external rotation. So when he should be keeping his rear knee externally rotated (hooks, punches like this), they tend to come together, so in order to generate momentum he simply leans to the outside to compensate for what his hips won't do for him. That's what it looks like is going on with you.

I just happened to hit pause right at 49 seconds and there it is, clear as day. Your right knee is ahead of the punch. If you were throwing a soft right-hand that'd be the right technique. But this kind of punch isn't supposed to be soft. You can't get the proper rotational power for a punch like this with that knee down as the punch is traveling. It's got to kind of point in the other direction as you throw the punch.

 

[ssullivan80]

This is a very tricky punch to learn the right technique to. Especially for someone long-limbed. I can't recall from other videos if yours if you have better internal or external rotation...this is something I only really got into within the last year. But take as an example the taller Viking I worked with, he has trouble with circular punches in general because he has better internal rotation (knees tend to point inward) and not so good external rotation. So when he should be keeping his rear knee externally rotated (hooks, punches like this), they tend to come together, so in order to generate momentum he simply leans to the outside to compensate for what his hips won't do for him. That's what it looks like is going on with you.

I just happened to hit pause right at 49 seconds and there it is, clear as day. Your right knee is ahead of the punch. If you were throwing a soft right-hand that'd be the right technique. But this kind of punch isn't supposed to be soft. You can't get the proper rotational power for a punch like this with that knee down as the punch is traveling. It's got to kind of point in the other direction as you throw the punch.

Thanks Bro! Trying to wrap my head around exactly what your saying. I understand the internal/external rotation of the knee, but am having a difficult time conceptualizing how i'd have my rear knee rotated externally when throwing that right hand? Should I be leaving more weight on that rear foot, or shifting my weight more across vs. through the target? At what point in that weight shift/rotation should the right hand release?

 

[fightingrabbit]

Wider stance.

 

[Sinister]

No^

 

[Sinister]

Thanks Bro! Trying to wrap my head around exactly what your saying. I understand the internal/external rotation of the knee, but am having a difficult time conceptualizing how i'd have my rear knee rotated externally when throwing that right hand? Should I be leaving more weight on that rear foot, or shifting my weight more across vs. through the target? At what point in that weight shift/rotation should the right hand release?

External rotation doesn't mean to widen the stance, though some people accomplish a compensation for not being able to externally rotate their legs BY widening their stances. All it means is the knees point away from each other slightly. Here's is a stance that has good external rotation of the knees:

Not to say you need to fight like that. But, you need to be able to push your knees apart from each other and lower your elevation, all while being balanced to throw this punch correctly. It will allow the weight to stay on the back foot as long as possible. Turning prematurely dissipates the force. The knee should turn RIGHT AS the punch lands. But if your legs have a hard time doing that naturally, there'll be a bit of a drag effect. The knee will come down too soon just from rotating the trunk because that's what they're used to, coming closer together, not remaining apart.

Also, on punches like this (even on the right hand as well), the weight should move diagonally downward, not forward.

 

[cuality]

Sherdoggers, maybe someone can give me an insight or tip on using the short chopping right hand. Being a taller fighter and working more on the outside I have never really developed that short "chopping" right hand. I use my cross well at range and my UC as a counter, but the right hook or "rolling right hand" is not a punch I have ever really got comfortable throwing. I've started working on developing that short right hand in my mid-range and inside. Still, just not comfortable throwing it, but it's improving. I feel like I have a tendency to either "push" my right hand on the inside, or I end up throwing it wide/loopy. Trying to get that "snap/crack" on my right hand on the inside and at mid-range is proving a bit difficult for me. Below is video with a few short clips that may better describe what i am describing, as I was working on using that short right hand. It felt more comfortable on the DE bag than the heavy bags, but still just feels like I am either pushing or looping that right when throwing it at mid/inside range. Either way, maybe one of you can identify something I am missing?

are you the guy from 'Weeds'?

 

[crossFTW]

Really hard to explain, but watch 3:00
He throws a downward angled short right hand, his fist stays close to the body until the very last moment. Imagine someone is holding your wrist very tight and your trying to break that grip.

 

[ssullivan80]

External rotation doesn't mean to widen the stance, though some people accomplish a compensation for not being able to externally rotate their legs BY widening their stances. All it means is the knees point away from each other slightly. Here's is a stance that has good external rotation of the knees:

Not to say you need to fight like that. But, you need to be able to push your knees apart from each other and lower your elevation, all while being balanced to throw this punch correctly. It will allow the weight to stay on the back foot as long as possible. Turning prematurely dissipates the force. The knee should turn RIGHT AS the punch lands. But if your legs have a hard time doing that naturally, there'll be a bit of a drag effect. The knee will come down too soon just from rotating the trunk because that's what they're used to, coming closer together, not remaining apart.

Also, on punches like this (even on the right hand as well), the weight should move diagonally downward, not forward.

Thank you for the excellent explanation, makes sense. I see why this punch will be so difficult for me to learn, because as my trunk rotates my knee naturally turns inward. I went out to the garage gym last night and gave this a try, I can see how keeping my knee turned outward creates far more power........ just feels so damn unnatural! It was easier to do without the changing of elevation than it was with. I also noticed that by applying this technique I could turn back into my left hook and it felt much shorter and stiffer than it had previous, as I am not leaning out as far.

Thanks again brotha, this is definitely gonna take some work to get comfortable with. I gotta find my way out to LV, be great to come put in some work at your gym.

Really hard to explain, but watch 3:00
He throws a downward angled short right hand, his fist stays close to the body until the very last moment. Imagine someone is holding your wrist very tight and your trying to break that grip.

Great example, thanks. James Toney is masterful at throwing this shot as well. I like your analogy of "someone holding the wrist and trying to break that grip", good stuff.

 

[Sinister]

This kind of thing is at the heart of what Blackburn taught Joe Louis. A lot of people try to look at what Joe's upper-body was doing at the time he threw a punch to see how he knocked the other guy out. Don't do that, look at his lower-body and you'll see an entirely different picture.

And yes, fixing an external rotation issue will naturally make your hook harder. All punches that are circular in motion require good external rotation. Remember Mike's knockout of Donald Curry? Now that you know about external rotation, look at Mike's stance and imagine now after you've felt it for yourself how hard this left hook must have REALLY been:



Mike is duck-footed, so he's stuck in external rotation. Hence why he punched to the body so well using mostly circular punches, and why he's not ever been known for splattering someone this way with his right hand. He had as good a right hand as he could have noting his problem with internal rotation, but his left hook was his bread and butter.

There's a myriad of exercised you can do to increase your range of motion with external rotation and strengthen stabilizers and flexors. Oh and for the lowering of elevation part, I should have noted the way to do this properly. You simply bend the rear knee keeping it pointed slightly outward. This should make you feel like you're going to sit down on your back heel. Your right hip will be almost right over your right heel, knee externally rotated, that'll give you the FULL range of the punch and allow a pretty arc so the opponent can't tell it's coming. If you ever do make it out to Tocco's, I'll definitely go over a bunch of them with you directly.

 

[Sinister]

P.S. - I'd like to see an updated version of the punch.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

must be some kind of english deficiency, but I just can't understand the internal/external rotation thing

 

[Sinister]

To make a long story short, point your knees towards each other (your heels should naturally go outward) and that's internal. Point them away from each other with your heels closer together, and that's external.

 

[SAAMAG]

look at Mike's stance and imagine now after you've felt it for yourself how hard this left hook must have REALLY been:



Mike is duck-footed, so he's stuck in external rotation. Hence why he punched to the body so well using mostly circular punches, and why he's not ever been known for splattering someone this way with his right hand. He had as good a right hand as he could have noting his problem with internal rotation, but his left hook was his bread and butter.

I don't know if the stance had much to do with this knockout considering he was off the ground when it happened. :icon_lol: He did was I call a "hoppin' hook".

 

[Sinister]

He switched from his left hip to the right initially to throw the body-punch. His right leg is often closer to a 90 degree angle than a 45 degree one. After the uppercut he switched to the left hip he brought the hook back. He did have a little hop in there, but his stance facilitated the motion and one foot stayed on the ground.

If his legs were more internally rotated, the whole thing wouldn't have come off as that smooth, and he wouldn't have had the same arc to the punch. Watch the slow-mo and specifically the over-head shot and you'll see the external rotation of the knees. Mike even shifts his left knee a little further out just before launching the hook.

Mind-you, I've had this demonstrated right in front of me as well. Mike was (and in many ways still is) my teacher.

 

[Discipulus]

I actually find that the little hop sometimes comes naturally when the hook carries through the target. I've missed hooks on the bag and ended up hopping to compensate, and it looks like Mike's hand just skips right through Curry's chin, the follow through pulling his foot from the ground as the weight transfers from one side to the other.

It's really a beautiful long hook, isn't it? One of the best examples of a so-called "swing" I can think of.

 

[SAAMAG]

I was just messing with you guys! Internal and external rotation of the knees / hips relative to punches (and kicks for that matter) aren't foreign to me, just giving you some shite.

 

[Sinister]

You pointed out a fantastic detail though, I just wanted to differentiate. Mike adding a little hop-step just makes the whole thing mindblowing. The hop-step itself is also extremely well executed.

 

[ssullivan80]

P.S. - I'd like to see an updated version of the punch.

I'll do that, been working on it consistently since I read your post, and I am starting to really understand the external/internal rotation differences. It's just something that has never been pointed out to me before. I've had several good coaches try to help me develop that punch, in a myriad of different ways. But your explanation of the rotation is the first explanation I have had that really put things into perspective. Prior to your explanation most all the emphasis was placed on the shoulder rotation, posture and positioning vs. lower body mechanics (internal/external rotation). Even when I was able to land that chopping/rolling right hand, it wasn't the punch that did the damage, the one that came after it was (usually a lead UC or pull away long lead hook). I wan't to learn to make that short right hand a punch that can do damage, and already by applying what you explained it feels far more solid of a punch (still just feels really awkward to throw, but I immediately notice a difference in how solid it is).