The Guard - unrealistic and ridiculous for self defence grappling

[TheMaster]

I mean, I thought that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was first of all supposed to be about self defence in a real fight, or at least that is how it is promoted. Then why on earth is the ridiculous 'guard' position emphasised? All the other guy on top has to do is reach down and grab your testicles, which you have left fully exposed by spreading your legs wide open.

If you end up on your back in a self defence situation, try to get up, kick the guy off you, kick his hips, scramble, but whatever you do DO NOT take up the completely unrealistic Gracie guard position and spread your legs exposing your most vulnerable region. It might work in sport fights with a groin guard, but in a real fight it is totally foolish.

As a guy who trained Judo in the past, I can see why thio position was never empahsised becasue it is just totally unrealistic and the aim of Judo, although a sport, was always to have in mind real world application.

Seriously, I am curious anyone who trains BJJ and has done it for at least some understanding of its use for self defence, what exactly is the BJJ view supposed to be, about the fact that anyone even without training can simply reach down and grab your testicles if you let them into a 'guard' posture?

It is simply one of the most unrealistic and foolish positions to take up that has ever been advocated for a self defence situation.


Edit: See page 29 for my final statement on this topic. Much good discussion, amidst the usual toss from keyboard warriors who don't train and the ranting from insecure individuals who do train when aspects of their art are questioned, actually emerged from this thread.

 

[An end for]

I am trying to figure out how you could grab the guy's testicles... is it the same thing as biting the guy's face from a triangle, or just not tapping to an armbar because you can take the pain?

 

[fiftysvn]

I wish mods were more pro-active about deleting crap threads like this.

 

[TheMaster]

I am trying to figure out how you could grab the guy's testicles... is it the same thing as biting the guy's face from a triangle, or just not tapping to an armbar because you can take the pain?

Have you ever rolled? Or even seen two people in a guard position?

The guy on the bottom (guard) has his legs open and around the opponent, in a basic gurad position. The guy on top has both hands free, which is why obviously the bottom man has to try and get wrist control. The guy on top has many options to punch or elbow the opponent in the face, body, or try to pass guard. In a real fight, he also has the option to simply reach down to one of the closest targets to his hands, which are the opponents testciles. It is quite clear. Of course, this is not what you see in sport MMA. But a real fight this is very easily possible.

 

[TheMaster]

I wish mods were more pro-active about deleting crap threads like this.

I wish people who posted on internet forums would stop burying their heads in the sand when truth stares them in the face.

This is a legit discussion about grappling technique and application for self defence, which is what the Gracie system was mainly designed for. If participating in the discussion frightens you or makes you uncomfortable then by all means leave kid.

 

[SPRAWL42]

Have you ever rolled? Or even seen two people in a guard position?

The guy on the bottom (guard) has his legs open and around the opponent, in a basic gurad position. The guy on top has both hands free, which is why obviously the bottom man has to try and get wrist control. The guy on top has many options to punch or elbow the opponent in the face, body, or try to pass guard. In a real fight, he also has the option to simply reach down to one of the closest targets to his hands, which are the opponents testciles. It is quite clear. Of course, this is not what you see in sport MMA. But a real fight this is very easily possible.

Sounds like someone just doesnt know much about bjj, its ok I would be upset if my guard sucked too.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I wish people who posted on internet forums would stop burying their heads in the sand when truth stares them in the face.

This is a legit discussion about grappling technique and application for self defence, which is what the Gracie system was mainly designed for. If participating in the discussion frightens you or makes you uncomfortable then by all means leave kid.

If you get taken to the ground by a person that is intent on holding you there, wouldn't it be nice (in a self defense situation) to have a plan other than just getting up?

I will agree with you the many of the concepts in sport jiu jitsu guard work have very little practical application in a self-defense situation, but if you watch all of the first UFC's you will see how plain old guard stacks up against attack (even when punching and grabbing sack was allowed). In the end, it is never a bad idea to know escapes, sweeps and submissions from the bottom if a larger opponent takes you down.

Only someone completely ignorant of true self defense would not see the value in that.

P.S. If you grab my junk in my guard, I'm going to triangle the shit out of you. You would be breaking a cardinal rule of being in guard AND you'd have no freaking base at all. You'd be a helpless sitting duck.

 

[fluffiestbunny]

yes there are some options for the bottom guy when strikes are involved, but you're right, being on top is far, far , far superior in a real fight than in guard.

 

[Lasse]

The guard is a shitty position in a real fight but if you get there vs a guy who doesn't know the position(assuming you got there unharmed) then you will 9/10 times finish him. If you want to grab someones nuts you will get caught in a triangle and even if you get to touch some balls and wank for a couple of seconds you will end up sleeping.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

I will actually grace your stupid post with a sincere response.

You never "take" the guard position in self-defense, you end up there, when you CANNOT get back up.

What strategy do you advocate when someone jumps on top of you, pins you with his weight and starts hitting you?

I really would like to have a good guard to create space in this situation.

Also, in self defense, you don't really use a closed guard, but put your legs between you and your opponent.

If you try to grab my balls in that situation you will eat a foot to the face.

 

[Balto]

Instead of replying to this joke of a thread, why not post your concerns in this thread about cleaning up this forum?

Why we need a Techniques subforum - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

Hopefully this will get noticed over in Support, and we'll get some more movement on our idea.

 

[hughes fan]

I am trying to figure out how you could grab the guy's testicles... is it the same thing as biting the guy's face from a triangle, or just not tapping to an armbar because you can take the pain?

I'd hate to grab my own testicles which seem more accessible. You'll probably have to go fishing to find his balls unless your in full mount.
At the end of the day there's also little to stop the guy on the bottom biting, scratching and clawing at your eyes also.

P.S- The face bite from the triangle thing was ridiculous and the giraffe rebuttal was hilarious.

 

[fluffiestbunny]

totally random, but in a real life or death fight and you're stuck in the guard, probably the number one greatest self defense move against an untrained attacker is the scorpion death crush. no joke- just look at the mechanics of the thing- you can't get hit and you can really fuck someone up, as in, destroy their ribs/spine/puncture their lungs. probably the highest percentage and quickest move to subdue an untrained attacker.

 

[TheMaster]

If you get taken to the ground by a person that is intent on holding you there, wouldn't it be nice (in a self defense situation) to have a plan other than just getting up?

P.S. If you grab my junk in my guard, I'm going to triangle the shit out of you.

Sure, it is vital to have a plan which is what this is about, But being in guard in not a very good one. How exactly do your 'triangle the shit out of someone' if they get a hold of your testicles? I am genuinely curious as to how this would work in a self defence situation. Have you trained this defence to see if it actually works when someone does that? I highly doubt it. As someone who has done a fair bit of grappling with Judo I think it is very very difficuly to precvent someone doing that if you are lying in guard. The best way to prevent it is to not be in guard. Kick them/scramble out instead or go for an immediate positional change/ submisision.

 

[fluffiestbunny]

actually i change my mind, if you can apply the SDC really quickly, the guard is probably where you'd want to be.

 

[ChainFlow]

Sure, it is vital to have a plan which is what this is about, But being in guard in not a very good one. How exactly do your 'triangle the shit out of someone' if they get a hold of your testicles? I am genuinely curious as to how this would work in a self defence situation. Have you trained this defence to see if it actually works when someone does that? I highly doubt it. As someone who has done a fair bit of grappling with Judo I think it is very very difficuly to precvent someone doing that if you are lying in guard. The best way to prevent it is to not be in guard. Kick them/scramble out instead or go for an immediate positional change/ submisision.

What type of guard are you talking about?

Closed guard you can't easily grab at the groin, and even if you do, you are putting your elbow out and your hand in. Easy recipe to get armdragged or your hand forced to your belly and a triangle thrown up.

Lazy open guard when he doesn't have any sort of hand control? That's the only one I can see this working for, and that's a dead position in grappling anyway because you are about to pass.


You're presupposing that you'll be able to just grab the nuts when that's far from the case. Your attempt to get at them is itself what opens you to the attacks.

 

[randomg1t]

anyone moving their arm even slightly towards my nuts while in guard will get triangled. especially in a fight because the triangle will be the thing i'll be looking for anyway.

i suppose you're gonna tell me they'll bite my dick off after i do that though, right?

 

[dza76wutang]

This is a terrible troll thread. Where's Michael Garcia?

 

[TheMaster]

Instead of replying to this joke of a thread, why not post your concerns in this thread about cleaning up this forum?

Why we need a Techniques subforum - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

Hopefully this will get noticed over in Support, and we'll get some more movement on our idea.

Don't be such a tool. If you aren't prepared to engage in a grappling discussion without getting butturt then dont participate. I know sport BJJ is popular but BJJ comes from Judo, and Judo always kept in mind self defence, which is why I image they didnt spend half of their time lying on their backs with their legs spread.

I'm not knocking sport grappling, but self defence grappling is something different.

 

[fluffiestbunny]

Don't be such a tool. If you aren't prepared to engage in a grappling discussion without getting butturt then dont participate. I know sport BJJ is popular but BJJ comes from Judo, and Judo always kept in mind self defence, which is why I image they didnt spend half of their time lying on their backs with their legs spread.

I'm not knocking sport grappling, but self defence grappling is something different.

judo kept in mind self defense? the judo that banned leg attacks and pretty much all ground work? you mean, that one?