So what really happened with Greg Jackson's Camp

XThe GreatestX

XThe GreatestX

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For the young ins that don't know, Jackson's at one point in 08,09,10,11,12ish had a complete strangehold on MMA

GSP, Jones, Cerrone, Condit, Guida, Diego, Carwin, Nate, Rashad, Melvin, Jardine, etc.

Cerrone i know talked about the Winkeljon guy here. But is that really the issue? Greg stepped back and this other guy fucked it up? Or was it just the gym at one point had it's time and now it's over

 
Wait, what?

I just posted a thread about Jackson-Wink, you simultaneously post a thread about a problem with that camp <45>

I thought I was just wrong, and wanted to be proven wrong - you think Jackson-Wink legit sucks now?
 
They were always overrated and carried by the talent. Jackson/Wink fighters have HORRIBLE fundamentals. Too much unorthodox, flashy, spinning shit, gimmicks kicks etc. Those dorks dont have a consistent system. Technique got a bit better with Brandon Gibson but still far below the true top gyms/coaching staffs.

Jackson/Wink fighters cant even jab. Bones, Condit, Holm (a fucking former pro boxing champ and top 10 alltime female boxer), Hashad, Dodson, Guida, Kennedy, Bagautinov, Diego etc. They had stinky boxing defense, just downright horrible and clueless in midrange b/c their fundamentals are ass cheeks. Their footwork is mostly awful, bouncing around, unnecessary steps, not sound defensively, inefficient etc. Only exception is Cub who trained with Joel Diaz for his boxing.

Frank Murr had shit boxing technique there, left to train with that Freddie Roach protege and dude was throwing nice jabs, hooking off it and showed by far the best boxing technique of his career. Erik Perez looked better than ever training with Alliance after moving too. Jackson/Wink fighters historically rely on cardio, athleticism, volume, durability etc. for success. Condits insane chin and cardio has seen him win and come back from many fights he wouldve lost if his physical attributes there werent so great. Dodsons athleticism and speed made up for a lack of craft outside of counterpunching which hes good at, which is why he has so many fights where he does jack shit and looks terrible (Makovsky, Elliot, Runes etc). Their physical strengths carry them when their technique consistently falters.
 
ExitLUPin said:
They were always overrated and carried by the talent. Jackson/Wink fighters have HORRIBLE fundamentals. Too much unorthodox, flashy, spinning shit, gimmicks kicks etc. Those dorks dont have a consistent system. Technique got a bit better with Brandon Gibson but still far below the true top gyms/coaching staffs.

Jackson/Wink fighters cant even jab. Bones, Condit, Holm (a fucking former pro boxing champ and top 10 alltime female boxer), Hashad, Dodson, Guida, Kennedy, Bagautinov, Diego etc. They had stinky boxing defense, just downright horrible and clueless in midrange b/c their fundamentals are ass cheeks. Their footwork is mostly awful, bouncing around, unnecessary steps, not sound defensively, inefficient etc. Only exception is Cub who trained with Joel Diaz for his boxing.

Frank Murr had shit boxing technique there, left to train with that Freddie Roach protege and dude was throwing nice jabs, hooking off it and showed by far the best boxing technique of his career. Erik Perez looked better than ever training with Alliance after moving too. Jackson/Wink fighters historically rely on cardio, athleticism, volume, durability etc. for success. Condits insane chin and cardio has seen him win and come back from many fights he wouldve lost if his physical attributes there werent so great. Dodsons athleticism and speed made up for a lack of craft outside of counterpunching which hes good at, which is why he has so many fights where he does jack shit and looks terrible (Makovsky, Elliot, Runes etc). Their physical strengths carry them when their technique consistently falters.
Click to expand...

this is an epic breakdown. Thread answered.
 
MMAFanCal said:
Holly Holm happened LOL

A 19 times boxing champion that does not even land a single punch and punches air with those loud "argghhh!!! arghhhhh!!!". Gets outstruck and manhandled in striking by a grappler/wrestler.
Click to expand...

There are people here who cling to that win and believe it makes Tate a great fighter.

Miesha Tate is a very poor fighter, and Lauren Murphy beats her.
 
Siver! said:
Wait, what?

I just posted a thread about Jackson-Wink, you simultaneously post a thread about a problem with that camp <45>

I thought I was just wrong, and wanted to be proven wrong - you think Jackson-Wink legit sucks now?
Click to expand...

yo I legit thought you secretly went on another account and started this thread because of the timing.
 
ExitLUPin said:
They were always overrated and carried by the talent. Jackson/Wink fighters have HORRIBLE fundamentals. Too much unorthodox, flashy, spinning shit, gimmicks kicks etc. Those dorks dont have a consistent system. Technique got a bit better with Brandon Gibson but still far below the true top gyms/coaching staffs.

Jackson/Wink fighters cant even jab. Bones, Condit, Holm (a fucking former pro boxing champ and top 10 alltime female boxer), Hashad, Dodson, Guida, Kennedy, Bagautinov, Diego etc. They had stinky boxing defense, just downright horrible and clueless in midrange b/c their fundamentals are ass cheeks. Their footwork is mostly awful, bouncing around, unnecessary steps, not sound defensively, inefficient etc. Only exception is Cub who trained with Joel Diaz for his boxing.

Frank Murr had shit boxing technique there, left to train with that Freddie Roach protege and dude was throwing nice jabs, hooking off it and showed by far the best boxing technique of his career. Erik Perez looked better than ever training with Alliance after moving too. Jackson/Wink fighters historically rely on cardio, athleticism, volume, durability etc. for success. Condits insane chin and cardio has seen him win and come back from many fights he wouldve lost if his physical attributes there werent so great. Dodsons athleticism and speed made up for a lack of craft outside of counterpunching which hes good at, which is why he has so many fights where he does jack shit and looks terrible (Makovsky, Elliot, Runes etc). Their physical strengths carry them when their technique consistently falters.
Click to expand...

Say no more my man.
 
I'll post my experience there, from the summer of 2009, arguably when the camp was at its peak or approaching its peak.

I had just moved from Cleveland to Albuquerque. In Cleveland, mostly during college and just after, I had trained a bit at a now-defunct Royce Gracie school. Off and on for about 6 years, but in sum probably only about 2.5 years. I was a blue belt with a couple of stripes, and I'd started training at a time (2000) when most schools did not have black belts. I wasn't great, but at that time to be blue you had to have good fundamentals. Heck, at that time it was a huge deal if a school had even a handful or purple belts.

Anyway, I'd taken a break from BJJ and done a tiny bit of boxing, but decided to check out Jackson's. The first hour of the evening class was supposed to be the grappling class, and the second hour was supposed to be reserved for striking. Holly Holm often led that class, BTW. Anyway, the first half hour of grappling class was almost always reserved for conditioning. Brutal stuff. Not warmups, but really intensive workouts. At 26 and in really good shape, I found the workouts to be incredibly rigorous. When we did the actual grappling, which Greg himself *only sometimes* led, I found the instruction to be incoherent. Usually someone would show a move, and everyone regardless of experience would be expected to practice the technique. From class to class the techniques were not tied together or related. Once, when Demacio Page was leading the grappling class, he demonstrated a technique that left him obviously vulnerable to a choke. When I asked him how he would adjust should someone go for the choke, he said by punching them in the face. Real brilliant stuff there. I think the biggest indictment I can give is that a guy who started at Jackson's a little before me, but without any prior experience, had no idea what it meant to roll. He literally asked me, after 3 months at the school, "what's that?" He had had no sparring practice, nor had anyone shown him any of the most basic BJJ techniques like buck and roll or an arm trap or scooting your hips. Just basic stuff people should be learning on day one or two.

The standup class consisted of line sparring, where it was mostly a free for all, and where I often found myself fighting for my life because the person across from me had only one speed. Often I felt like I was there to be a punching bag for guys like Demacio Page (who, after I told him I had very little stand up experience and asked him if we could go light, proceeded to deliver a hellacious body shot to me).

Obviously Jackson's produced a lot of very good fighters, and the coaching helped propel others over the top. But for a regular guy like me, who was there looking for a workout and to learn some technique, it was worse than a waste. I felt like I was being put through trials (and maybe I was, though no one ever asked me what my goals where when I started there), and there to be a punching bag for the people who were trying to train for fights. That was a long time ago, and so I have no idea what it's like now, but for anyone who cares that's what my subpar experience at Jackson's was.
 
With fighters not wanting to fight training partners, LHWs didn't want to be there with Jones owning the division. Similar with GSP, Donald etc etc.... Also time changes everything and people move on.
 
Most good things in Albuquerque come to an end. Like your car before it's stolen. Or your comfort level when you pay for a premier daycare for your child before learning that the workers have to check the fenced off private playgrounds each and every morning for dirty needles before letting the toddlers out to play. Or how the city government tried rebranding one of the worst parts of town as the International District, but years later it's still more accurately and commonly called the War Zone. Or how the mental health facility for troubled youth lost its license and had to permanently close for terrible practices despite multiple regulatory warnings and citations. But hey, you get to spot some JW decals on vehicles in traffic from time to time, and least we don't have humidity!
 
I think history shows, it’s not the gym or camp

it’s the talent. That’s why there’s a gym that seems to dominate for a few years when it’s talent peaks, then another one takes its place.

this has been true since the earliest of MMA with Lion’s Den and Hammer House, Miletich, etc, all the way to all the various “Top Team”, Black House, AKA, Xtreme Couture and Team Quest, Nova Uniao, Kings, Alliance, Roufus, Alpha Male, Blackzillians, etc

All the more confusing as egos and conflicts get in the way and fighters rising up and want to own their own gyms, as many fighters switch camps or create new ones, or simply want to START/STOP training with certain people, due reasons in addition to skill (attitude, personality, business ventures, conflicts due to rankings and gym frowning on teammates fighting each other, etc) or even location, weather, etc

Because at the root of it all, it’s not about the gym, it’s the talent.

They just have to train somewhere, and it’s actually them giving the gym credibility, not the other way around. The truth is that the gym got lucky that talent peaked while they were there, instead of some other gym.

But somehow we still have this 70’s “Kung fu movie” mentality where it’s not about the fighter themselves, but the style or “master” lol. This is a myth.

What many casuals fail to realize, is that for every champion “produced” by a gym or particular trainer, there are 100 people training at that very same gym that suck ass or are just hobbyists…. yet have the same trainer as the champ. Not saying the gym/trainers don’t contribute to success, but it’s the fighter talent that tends to congregate, and elevate the status of the gym, and not magically turning talent-less people into champs, like Mr Miyagi and karate kid

that’s the reality.
 
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It’s talent but Cowboy explains why jack is no longer there. I have always thought Winklejohn was an overrated striking coach. He always trained one way, and He has not evolved and thus his fighters stayed stagnant. Had jones went to Cordeiros, I feel he would have been a much better striker, along with Holms. I can’t understand how they could not make a talent like Holmes a reigning champion.

They made jones into a long boxer, and negated his Muay Thai elbows, knees and Muay Thai clinch game, which I feel would have made him ruthless. A guy like Cordeiro would have pushed Holms, Jones and the rest of the talent that wink wasted.
 
ExitLUPin said:
They were always overrated and carried by the talent. Jackson/Wink fighters have HORRIBLE fundamentals. Too much unorthodox, flashy, spinning shit, gimmicks kicks etc. Those dorks dont have a consistent system. Technique got a bit better with Brandon Gibson but still far below the true top gyms/coaching staffs.

Jackson/Wink fighters cant even jab. Bones, Condit, Holm (a fucking former pro boxing champ and top 10 alltime female boxer), Hashad, Dodson, Guida, Kennedy, Bagautinov, Diego etc. They had stinky boxing defense, just downright horrible and clueless in midrange b/c their fundamentals are ass cheeks. Their footwork is mostly awful, bouncing around, unnecessary steps, not sound defensively, inefficient etc. Only exception is Cub who trained with Joel Diaz for his boxing.

Frank Murr had shit boxing technique there, left to train with that Freddie Roach protege and dude was throwing nice jabs, hooking off it and showed by far the best boxing technique of his career. Erik Perez looked better than ever training with Alliance after moving too. Jackson/Wink fighters historically rely on cardio, athleticism, volume, durability etc. for success. Condits insane chin and cardio has seen him win and come back from many fights he wouldve lost if his physical attributes there werent so great. Dodsons athleticism and speed made up for a lack of craft outside of counterpunching which hes good at, which is why he has so many fights where he does jack shit and looks terrible (Makovsky, Elliot, Runes etc). Their physical strengths carry them when their technique consistently falters.
Click to expand...

Some harsh words but also a lot of good points, especially when it comes to boxing fundamentals
 
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