Slipping punches/being evasive in MT??

[milkcarton]

Hey,
I'm currently training at an MMA gym, but the majority of my three and a half years of training have been at Muay Thai gyms (here in Aus and in Thailand) so I guess you could say I've got a Thai style about me, rather block kicks than move out of the way and always being in front and close to sparring partners/opponents.

Any ways, being at an MMA gym the main stand up coach there is a boxer and is all about in/out and being REALLY light on your feet, slipping shots etc. but I struggle with alot of it 'cause it feels unnatural to what I've done before!! He's big on his Rob Kaman and Benny the Jet, which is totally different to who I enjoy watching (Superlek Sornesarn. Sangtiennoi and his son Moses etc).

Any ways, I'd love to try and adapt some of it to what I already know but I'm struggling big time to see how it'd work, even when I rep some specific things out, I find it gimps me in other areas i.e. if I get very light and bouncy on my feet I find my kicks become ineffective and lose 20-30% power, if I try and start slipping shots I know a knee might pop up when it comes down to fight time etc.

Any one with ALOT of trainers experience or with examples (via youtube links preferred over written would be easier, but I'm happy with anything right now!) would be greatly appreciated. Reason I'm at an MMA gym is 'cause I was a member of the MT gym in my town (which is the only one) and had a bad run there, I don't agree with alot of it (basically the head trainer teaches kickboxing and calls it Muay Thai) so I shipped off and travelled two hours each way to train/compete for another gym for a year and a half and it was depleting my $$ to the point making more frequent and longer trips to Thailand was becoming difficult.

I love the gym I'm at, I'm just struggling to adapt I guess, I don't have any examples to go by really so again, anyone out there with experience and/or links to get a better view on it (even naming fighters for me to watch would be of great help) would be VERY appreciated.

Thanks

Nic

 

[SummerStriker]

Slipping is so hard that you can be the grand champion of the whole world and not be able to do it. Imagine that working on it is to give you an intimate knowledge of how other people fight, and to make you a more useful training partner to your teammates.

That said, I agree with you to a certain extent. Bob and weave / ducking doesn't seem to work out too well. I recently gave a kid a black eye with what was suppose to be a 1,2 TKD Snap Kick to the abs because he tried to duck the 2 and snapped his head right into my kick. Slipping punches on the other hand, I think can be helpful.

If you slip a cross, try touching the guys other hand when you go OR do a split entrance as if you are grabbing his neck at the same time. Because you come forward with the slip, you will be in range to knee. Sometimes I come up against people bigger and slower than myself, and I can use this sort of movement.

If all you do is stand there and bang, you basically can't beat a bigger / stronger person who does the same thing. Evasion can be your plan B, unless you think you can always be tougher. That's usually a bad bet.

 

[DoctorTaco]

To state it over simply, Dutch kick boxing is a marriage of western boxing and muay Thai. Start looking there!

 

[Cannon_6]

I'm sure you're already familiar with Samart Payakaroon. Watch his fights on youtube again -- he was a master of not getting hit.

 

[crossFTW]

Slipping is so hard that you can be the grand champion of the whole world and not be able to do it. Imagine that working on it is to give you an intimate knowledge of how other people fight, and to make you a more useful training partner to your teammates.

That said, I agree with you to a certain extent. Bob and weave / ducking doesn't seem to work out too well. I recently gave a kid a black eye with what was suppose to be a 1,2 TKD Snap Kick to the abs because he tried to duck the 2 and snapped his head right into my kick. Slipping punches on the other hand, I think can be helpful.

Your right it is very hard if you don't know how to do it properly and most muay thai trainers do not take the time to explain the important details.

http://www.myboxingcoach.com/body-movement-slips/

 

[SAAMAG]

I'm sure you're already familiar with Samart Payakaroon. Watch his fights on youtube again -- he was a master of not getting hit.

I second this.

 

[SAAMAG]

Your right it is very hard if you don't know how to do it properly and most muay thai trainers do not take the time to explain the important details.

http://www.myboxingcoach.com/body-movement-slips/

That's because Nak Muay are hard ass's who don't need to slip. If you strike them in the face, you'll just end up hurting your hand or foot.

 

[Discipulus]

Speaking as someone who spars and trains with a lot of people who fight like Dutch kickboxers (punches and low kicks mostly), and also someone not too light on his feet--not necessarily by choice :wink:--I can probably offer a little advice, though you're far more experienced than me, so take it how you will.

Having a good stance and position relative to your opponent is key. You can't really afford to stand stock still in front of your opponent, but with a smart stance and a good understanding of safe/effective positioning you'll be better off as a less mobile guy. Sinister has pointed out before the importance of lead foot position, and this was a big revelation for me. Make sure that you keep that lead foot pointed at the opponent's center line nearly all the time. Make sure that your head isn't floating over your lead foot all the time.

You will probably have an advantage in the sense that your Dutch-style training partners will likely circle and move more than the Thai guys you're used to. If you can adapt to their style, their circular movement is a dream for a hard kicker with good timing.

 

[T Hab]

I did years of MT before switching to boxing. Honestly, it's tough. I think you should begin to learn the concepts in a boxing-only context, and then bring them over to MT. That worked for me. For example, if you "bob and weave" improperly (i.e. bend at the waist and look at the ground) you will get hurt once kicks are allowed. To be perfectly honest, you will also get hurt in boxing against somebody who knows how to throw an uppercut. Learn it properly (bend at the knees and use your legs to twist and go side to side while keeping your eyes on the centre of your opponent's chest) and you will be able to adapt it to MT and MMA.

Slipping is extremely useful and can be brought straight to MT, especially slipping a cross and following it up with a hook. Slipping while countering (Right hand going over the jab as you slip inside or right hand going under the cross to the sternum while slipping outside) is fantastic in MT.

Unless you are much taller than all your opponents, you can't get very far without knowing how to slip, bob and weave, and head fake. In my opinion, it's easiest learned in the context of boxing and then brought over.

 

[DaGenius]

Slipping punches is definitely something we train a lot in MT. Bobbing and weaving not as much. Integrate as much as makes sense for your game. If you're a shorter dude some bob and weave is good. If you are longer then focus on being longer instead of trying to bob and weave

 

[Solexe32]

One of the great things about Samart was that he just had an instinct for range. For some it may take a round or so to start figuring it out, for him he knew it the second he walked in the ring.

When it comes to learning how to slip punches and all of that, it just takes time. Something to start is to just focus on staying loose when you spar, and move your shoulders. It doesn't really matter how you move your shoulders at first, as long as you are getting used to keeping them moving.

Something you could also practice, is to lean forward a bit when you are in your stance. It's tricky to get used to lean forward and keeping most of your weight on your back foot. What this does is give you much more room to lean back when someone starts throwing. They will throw short because your head is out further, and you have tons of room to move your head back and counter.

 

[Scythegpd**]

Slipping punches is definitely something we train a lot in MT. Bobbing and weaving not as much.

That's because, unlike boxing, in MT particularly the "bobbing" part is just asking for a knee to the face or a kick to the head.

 

[T Hab]

That's because, unlike boxing, in MT particularly the "bobbing" part is just asking for a knee to the face or a kick to the head.

Only if done incorrectly. Most people seem to think that bobbing involves bending at the waist and most people also stay down too long (I made these same mistakes before I boxed). The bending should come from the knees and you should be back up, with your weight shifted to your other leg, precisely when your opponent's punch reaches full extension (i.e. he can't throw a knee yet).

 

[Scythegpd**]

Only if done incorrectly. Most people seem to think that bobbing involves bending at the waist and most people also stay down too long (I made these same mistakes before I boxed). The bending should come from the knees and you should be back up, with your weight shifted to your other leg, precisely when your opponent's punch reaches full extension (i.e. he can't throw a knee yet).

Sorry but I have to disagree. If you're bobbing below a hook, bending at waist or knees is irrelevant (although yes, knees are the correct technique), you are still in a prime position to eat a knee (a long knee, done correctly, can easily extend the length of a punch). That is something that is simply not a consideration in boxing.

In the "perfect" scenario you're "down" when they're at full extension however there are to many variables regarding opponent (and your) speed, tactics (what if you started bobbing but our opponent saw you doing that previously so was just faking to set up a knee) and a myriad other things.
So, in my view, in MT a bob is a higher risk move than a slip. And a bob in MT is a higher risk move than a bob in boxing. Hence why a lot of places focus more on slips than bobs (note "more", not "exclusively")

The same reason I didn't change the original quote from "Bobbing and weaving not as much." to "Bobbing and weaving never.". As yes, it is possible and yes ,it does happen, however there's no denying that bobbing is a higher risk move in MT versus slipping.


In summary:
Is it impossible - No
Does it never happen - No
Is it higher risk than slipping - Yes
Is it higher risk in MT than in boxing - Yes
That's all I was saying.

I'd happily change my mind if you can show me how, in general (i.e. most often), a bob is a lower risk than a slip and a bob in MT is lower risk than a bob in boxing. Please note I'm talking real world and most common scenarios, not "perfect world" (in which case bob or slip is irrelevant as in a perfect world either would result in you never getting hit).
Because that's all I was saying, move risk 1 > move risk 2 and risk of move in sport x > risk of move in sport y. As opposed to move 1 in sport x = impossible.

 

[SAAMAG]

Some guys bob and weave under high kicks. Just saying.

 

[Scythegpd**]

Some guys bob and weave under high kicks. Just saying.

Aye but I'm talking purely in context of punching (the post I originally quoted specifically said "Slipping punches ...")
Primarily because a kick, as you know, has more momentum (hence why in general kicks are stronger than punches however also slower) so the transitional period of turning a "bobbed" kick into a knee is noticeably longer than the same from a punch into a knee, purely due to the way your body is pulled in an "aired" kick versus an "aired" punch.

Kicks vs punches (and the relevant defenses against each of them) are completely different I'm sure you agree?

 

[Discipulus]

I'd rather fade/block a high kick than bob underneath it. That's just begging for the upper shin to connect with your head. The worst that happens when you fade poorly is you catch some toes, which isn't nearly as bad, unless the guy's got serious athlete's foot.

 

[SAAMAG]

I was joking. People do duck, but its not a bob and weave

 

[Discipulus]

Ah. :wink:

 

[KO By Knee]

Be aware of the training, but remember not every technique is going to work for every fighter. And when it comes to stand-up the styles are so different that you really can't do both at the same time.

If your real traditional with Muay Thai then you're probably standing flat-footed in the pocket, vary your attack based on your opponent. But always play your strength at this point your working on undoing/adapting your MT to boxing, but if your strength is kicking/MT techniques then focus on that.

I ignore certain techniques or i'll learn in the gym but wont necessarily apply what i've learned if I feel it won't help me in a fight.

Example- I know how to do a spinning back kick pretty good I even run the drill however i'd never try that in a fight cuz it's not me- come fight im strictly a boxer unless im having a hard time i'll switch to more MT attack if I can't find the range/knock out or if my opponent is a much slicker boxer.

Been training boxing for over 10 years, MT i've got less then a year in.

Also sliding a punch can put you really close in the pocket-perfect for a muay-thai clinch and knee, my absolute favorite as in a boxing stance you can slide to the inside and the knee doesn't need much behind it to do damage.