Seeking Tips To Avoid Tai Otoshi Injury

[RAWilliams]

So Monday I picked up my second knee injury due to someone else's catastrophically botched tai otoshi setup. This was in randori.

Based on where my partner was standing I was expecting him to step behind me for o-soto-gake or some similar thing. Or I thought he might rotate in and go for a hip throw or tai otoshi. Both of which I was prepared to give to him by rolling through. But instead of the classic setup where uke starts square and gets thrown forward, he started the throw at 90 degrees to the side, catching my leg just below the knee but sideways. Sideways is not a good direction for anyone's knee. Of course if he'd treated me to the springing block or even pointed his knees down instead of planting the sole of his foot on the ground with his knee locked, my knee would have stood a chance. The throw was also not accompanied by the classic circular motion (up with lapel, down with wrist) that, done correctly, can send uke flying even without the leg block. There was no upward momentum; if anything I'd sunk my body weight way back to try to buy time to change position. Mostly the force came from lateral motion and a horizontal whipping-around of his body that I tried hard to slow down. I also tried to spin outside to fall like I would from o-soto-gake where the block is on the back of the leg, but I couldn't get around fast enough because he was holding my lapel and cranking on it like there was no tomorrow. I also couldn't step over his blocking leg with my right leg, which was forward, and my left leg was literally on the other side of my body since the throw came from a 90 degree angle. One loud snap later, and I was being carried off the mat. I hate being carried off the mat.

The good news is, it's just a sprain so I'm only out 4 to 6 weeks this time. Last time someone got me with tai otoshi, it wasn't a training situation (I was trying to date), it was done with a locked knee directly over mine, and I was out for a heck of a lot longer. So I ought to be grateful since this time I didn't have to wait six months before I could walk again. The bad news is, I have to miss at least one tournament I wanted to attend, and possibly two. Also I have to wear a stupid looking brace and sit around getting fat because I can't do any roadwork.

The evidence suggests that the guys I come up against cannot be relied upon to understand tai otoshi or to limit themselves to throws they understand and can control. I know a few ways to counter the throw when it's coming from the front and my feet are roughly square, but the three methods I know failed me yesterday because of the 90 degree orientation. There are a couple of other things to defeat the throw but they're not acceptable for use against a teammate.

Now, this board is crawling with people who are better judoka than me. So: how do I deny a tai otoshi style throw (blocking leg planted) where my axis of rotation is roughly cartwheel-like instead of forward, and the force is coming from the side instead of the front?

 

[reddragon343]

In my experience with tai otoshi players...the onus is often on the uke to sense the throw coming and step out of it fast enough.

Under the assumption you can catch the throw on entry, you can jam the shoulder that is coming in towards you, or you can follow the movement, step out and do a Yoko guruma of sorts.

 

[Adriano**]

Is your opponent a Higher grade? if so this is unacceptable a Tai Otoshi should never be dont at knee level or at this angle never ever. There is a move in Judo for Judo self defence where you do the Otoshi on the knee to purposely damage you opponents knee and inflict pain and injury. Usually beginners do this mistake it why there the most dangerous to spar with as they do not know what there doing but its why we are there to teach them the correct way and what should never be done.

It usually goes unnoticed such sneaky tricks or mistakes when lower grades are sparring. In order to stop this tell him what he is doing wrong and that your knee is damaged if he continues when he goes for the Tai Otoshi bend the knee onto the back of his knee or leg.

I must warn that this can break someone's leg and I shouldn't be even talking about such techniques as its frowned upon but I believe if your opponent is not listening to you and is intent on being malicious and you have warned him then you have to defend yourself. But all avenues should be taken before you do this tell the instructor warn him if he continues then try this technique. In order not to break his leg but inflict pain to him bend the knee and force it onto his leg not fully but just enough.

If done fully you can break someone's leg, wreck there knee and ligaments and break there ankle. I witnessed in competition a player break his leg and ankle due to this technique being used.

Please do not abuse this technique and don't use it to inflict permanent injury use it as a warning to your opponent.

 

[Adriano**]

A way that is less severe is to lift the leg then face your opponent and go for Kosoto-Gake to start with practise with Uki and ask your Sensei that you wish to practise Tai-Otoshi counters.

The main this is to either bend the knee slightly so not to hurt your opponent and then go for a Tani-Otoshi or Ura-Nage from the side remembering to squat love hips down thrust up with your stomach out then turn your head facing the other way its a technical throw I would go for Tani-Otoshi or stepping off of Tai-Otoshi into Kosoto - Gake Drill this constantly everyday until you feel you have mastered it and even then practise counters every week if possible.

Practise the switch from when your opponent goes for Tai-Otoshi lifting the leg and stepping around to face him this stops your opponents attack. or if going for Tani-Otoshi block your opponents throw then counter attack.

I hope this will help RAWilliams.

 

[RAWilliams]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for your advice and drill suggestions. I've paid in advance for a private lesson with one of our black belt professors once my knee heals. I will run these counters by him just as a starting point. He may have some ideas particular to BJJ although he also has a judo background.

For the actual drilling of the Tai-Otoshi counters once we pick something good for my body type, naturally someone will have to hit the mat a few hundred times. I know the perfect Uke. He's apologized for the accident but will most likely not feel better until he's had a chance to make it up to me. He's senior to me in BJJ but has no judo background that I'm aware of.

The accident occurred in a BJJ school, in an advanced class when we were doing a bit of judo style randori as a supervised exercise. This wasn't open-mat anarchy. From time to time, the professors forbid us to use the techniques with which we're more comfortable. It is a reasonable exercise designed to make us work on weaker aspects of our game. Monday, it was the wrestlers' turn to not be permitted any single or double leg takedowns. So we were limited to the judo throws. That suited me nicely as a former judoka until I was reminded of the extent to which it's possible to botch Tai-Otoshi.

BJJ borrows heavily from judo and is derived from judo, but it is not judo. Except for a select few throws, we don't generally train or analyze the judo throws in class. Many of us cross train or have prior judo experience, but that has nothing to do with our BJJ rank or skill level. It would have been impossible to tell just by looking at the lineup who had the skills and who did not. All of this made the randori more risky. It must have been hard to supervise. But the professors are safety conscious. It may be a while before anyone gets to play randori again, and when we do, the circumstances will probably be different.

@Adriano: That technique you were talking about to correct a stubborn tori with bad Tai-Otoshi setup is one of two I actually considered, but was not willing to use against a teammate. I agree that discretion is best overall. Definitely I got your message and thank you.

Unfortunately I'm familiar with the legbreaker variation of Tai-Otoshi, having been uke under highly embarrassing circumstances not related to any martial arts class.

With only three years of judo (that finished quite some time ago), I don't know that I'm skilled enough to pull off the Ura-Nage at full speed but will drill all the counters you suggested. Kosoto-Gake will be perfect if I can just get my weight off my front leg enough to step over. The biggest challenge will be doing that from a 90 degree angle.

 

[Blue Streak]

If someone is attempting to execute Tai Otoshi on you from a 90 degree angle so that they are effectively attacking the side of your knee and just dragging you over, like is described in the OP, I would suggest simply pivoting on the foot of the leg that is being attacked so that you are facing the opposite direction as Tori and then going with the throw.

By turning to face the opposite direction as Tori the throw will attack the back of your leg, which makes it much easier to fall. After you have fallen safely, then you can talk to your partner about safety and executing throws appropriately. IMO it is better to take the fall safely, than to risk injury by attempting to block or counter, particularly if your opponent is strong enough to force the throw and drag you over.

However, if you are good enough and see the throw coming in enough time to attempt a counter, you could attempt an O Soto Gari. Pivot on the foot of the leg that is being attacked; swing your other leg around, over your partner's blocking leg, and plant it to establish a good base; pin the arm of your opponent that is grabbing your lapel to your chest; drive the leg that was being attacked straight back and bend your upper body forwards at the same time.

 

[RAWilliams]

If someone is attempting to execute Tai Otoshi on you from a 90 degree angle so that they are effectively attacking the side of your knee and just dragging you over, like is described in the OP, I would suggest simply pivoting on the foot of the leg that is being attacked so that you are facing the opposite direction as Tori and then going with the throw.

That was actually the last thing I tried. It almost worked, except I couldn't overcome the force of his lapel pull enough to spin out far enough to save the knee. He had a pretty impressive grip and sideways pull. Believe me I was very enthusiastic about taking a fall backward and did everything I could to make it happen. :icon_lol: It's just that my best wasn't good enough that day.

It seems unfortunate to drill the process of taking a dive, but it beats wearing this ugly brace, which does not match my purse or shoes. Perhaps if I drill the spin and commit to it first, I'll be able to line it up next time. I'm certain there will be a next time. Bad Tai-Otoshi is obviously part of the universe's plan for me.

 

[Auspex]

I do ALL my tai-otoshi's at a 90...but I'm not a douche about it.

Their left leg is forward, so it's more of a kartwheel....Good times for all