Scoring middle kicks to the arms. Blocked or Point?

[FokaiMuayThai]

After the recent controversial Keaw vs. Minoru decision I would like to ask my fellow kickfighting sherdoggers their opinion on this issue.

It seems like under K-1 scoring, if a kick touches/hits the arm/shoulder area it's considered "blocked" and not counted as a clean strike.

Do you agree with this? If yes/no, why?

This is a tricky subject because a lot of dutch/Japanese style fighters use single/double forearm blocks so they can dash in with punch combinations, whereas traditional MT stylists prefer to do a high shin check and maybe kick back or close for the clinch.

Another thing is the middle kick is the bread and butter of most Muay Thai stylists and there is a strategy based around repeatedly kicking your opponents arms to weaken him. Yodsanklai vs souwer comes to mind as the difference in MT vs Kickboxing strategies.

Getting a full power kick to the arm is no fun, but if done properly an arm block with a sidestep can nullify it.

Also, sometimes it is hard to tell if the kick was intentionally arm blocked or if the fighter just took the kick.

Then again there are fighters who throw very weak middle kicks that don't show any effect just to distract their opponents.

What should the ruling be on this in a perfect world?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Its a block in kickboxing and worth points in Muay Thai. Just two different ways at looking at the scenario. I dont really think we can claim one as more valid.

 

[FokaiMuayThai]

That's why I'm asking for opinions.

 

[Boran]

In Holland it doesn't score, which is unfair I think. You can use kicks to the arms to neutralize the weapons of a boxer.

I think it's better to look at impact. If there is visible impact, for instance the fighter taking the kick is visibly moved or hurt by the kick it scores. If he sidesteps and neutralizes the kick by this movement it doesn't score.

 

[DastardlyMass]

In muay thai they are used like a leg kick to slow down the opponent over time. I understand why it could be considered a block especially under 3 rounds where their is not much time for the damage to add up. But I also believe kicks should be worth more as k-1 rules basically penalize you for kicking as you are going to have to extremely outwork your opponent if you are trading kicks for punches. I really defeats the point of calling your sport KICKboxing

 

[Kanka]

In muay thai it depends how hard you kick. If you kick like a mule sure it will score.

 

[Snubnoze707]

stmarcus coming out the woodwork...

You can nullify some round kicks with a double forearm guard but it should be obvious what kind of impact the kick is having, and also when someone just straight up gets kicked in the arm in a high guard fight stance. I think those shots should score.

Regardless, if you are continually blasting someone's guard and they aren't doing anything in return, you should be winning that fight.

 

[FokaiMuayThai]

I can understand the logic behind everyone's responses, i do agree that impact should be taken into account.

Keaw was out striking minoru by a huge margin, but they were all mostly repeated middle kicks aimed at his guard. (BUT he also did land several knees on his head, perhaps the judges downplayed them?)

I think that a lot of people think that if kicks to the arms should score, then why not punches to the arm? Or knees to the arms? Granted a punch wont snap your arm, but there is still effect.

Having a heavy puncher beat on your arms isn't as painful as catching a shin because of the gloves, but it can take a toll as well.

This is really interesting to me, i know it's not possible, but would like to see an illustrated blow by blow scoring by K-1 judges to see what actually counts as a valid strike.

Things like this make a huge difference in the success of certain styles of fighters.

This is why i've always said that your typical stadium thai would have problems scoring K-1 rules unless he was Buakaw, Yodsanklai, or Sittichai caliber athleticism/killer instinct. K-1 rewards being busy more than one shot damage, unless it KOs.

The western boxing-esque K-1 criteria is EXACTLY how i think the majority of Muay Thai would be scored if it became popular in America. K-1 rules with elbows in America, just like AJKF, that would be a dream come true for me.

 

[FokaiMuayThai]

Then again the decision might just be Japanese bias, maybe it is more profitable for the promotion to show Minoru avenging his stablemate Kubo.

 

[Crimson Glory]

stmarcus coming out the woodwork...

You can nullify some round kicks with a double forearm guard but it should be obvious what kind of impact the kick is having, and also when someone just straight up gets kicked in the arm in a high guard fight stance. I think those shots should score.

Regardless, if you are continually blasting someone's guard and they aren't doing anything in return, you should be winning that fight.

I don't know much about scoring, but this makes perfect sense too me.

It's not like the arms are a shield thats seperate from your body. So you are doing damage that can make it harder to clinch, throw punches etc.

 

[Cocakillbana]

This is why i've always said that your typical stadium thai would have problems scoring K-1 rules unless he was Buakaw, Yodsanklai, or Sittichai caliber athleticism/killer instinct. K-1 rewards being busy more than one shot damage, unless it KOs.

This is just silly.

What is a typical stadium Thai, and how are those guys not in that group? Before Buakaw and Sitthichai made it internationally, they weren't viewed as extremely rare fighters or anything. Were they not "typical Thais" before international chances? Hell, Sitthichai is a perfect example of a "typical stadium Thai." Decent fighter who moves up in weight and becomes a beater-upper of mostly non-Thais, and now he's the hottest shit going. Coincidence? It's easy to play this "typical Thai" thing when the majority of them never get international chances, and when these fighters that aren't "typical Thais" make their names off of beating non-Thais.

 

[Crimson Glory]

I think that a lot of people think that if kicks to the arms should score, then why not punches to the arm? Or knees to the arms? Granted a punch wont snap your arm, but there is still effect.

That's a good point. Never thought of that.

The western boxing-esque K-1 criteria is EXACTLY how i think the majority of Muay Thai would be scored if it became popular in America. K-1 rules with elbows in America, just like AJKF, that would be a dream come true for me.

I think it'd be the only way it would become popular in North America.

I think if they had a limit like they have in Glory on clinching, but allowed elbows then it would work.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Then again the decision might just be Japanese bias, maybe it is more profitable for the promotion to show Minoru avenging his stablemate Kubo.

K-1 has always shown bias.

My biggest gripe with them is having to watch a ref constantly break up ACTION, not stalling, because fighters use their natural instincts to grab and catch. The ref interruptions are way more invasive to the flow of action than clinching.

One of the best things Glory did was not adopt that stupid zero clinch rule from K-1.

 

[FokaiMuayThai]

This is just silly.

What is a typical stadium Thai, and how are those guys not in that group? Before Buakaw and Sitthichai made it internationally, they weren't viewed as extremely rare fighters or anything. Were they not "typical Thais" before international chances? Hell, Sitthichai is a perfect example of a "typical stadium Thai." Decent fighter who moves up in weight and becomes a beater-upper of mostly non-Thais, and now he's the hottest shit going. Coincidence? It's easy to play this "typical Thai" thing when the majority of them never get international chances, and when these fighters that aren't "typical Thais" make their names off of beating non-Thais.

That's what i mean, these guys ranged from average to above average in Thailand, but they adjusted to K1 rules and excelled better than what would be expected from your typical Thai fighter in this day and age.What i mean by typical Thai are guys who's styles revolved around fighting for points under Thai rules, your petboonchus, Sam As, Kongsaks, hell even the likes of Damien Alamos and the pinto bros would have trouble under K1 rules with their styles.

Put saiyok in the K1 ring, he'll be real good. Put Diesellek in there.

I do agree that over the years K-1 seemed to have a 1 (or zero) Thai "quota", but i still stand by the fact that the type of fighting that most Thais do vs other Thais in their home country won't be as transferable in general to K-1 rules.

That being said, i have watched pre K-1 style fight interviews where Thais like Khem and Saiyok have said something along the lines of "It's pretty much the same thing as Muay Thai, just without elbows." Perhaps this is true rule wise, but scoring can fuck you over IMO, Thais have to work harder to succeed if they don't KO their opponent.

Same thing could be said for foreigners fighting in Thailand where landing plenty of punches don't get you much. Yes i realize they are completely different sports, but that's not my point.

I just want to know people's view on whether the damage from kicks to the arm warrants a score. To me they do, but if they are actively blocked with both arms and are followed with a counter or the fighter nullifies the impact they shouldn't score. It's the same concept as how high checking and kicking back scores.

 

[Cocakillbana]

That's what i mean, these guys ranged from average to above average in Thailand, but they adjusted to K1 rules and excelled better than what would be expected from your typical Thai fighter in this day and age.What i mean by typical Thai are guys who's styles revolved around fighting for points under Thai rules, your petboonchus, Sam As, Kongsaks, hell even the likes of Damien Alamos and the pinto bros would have trouble under K1 rules with their styles.

Put saiyok in the K1 ring, he'll be real good. Put Diesellek in there.

I do agree that over the years K-1 seemed to have a 1 (or zero) Thai "quota", but i still stand by the fact that the type of fighting that most Thais do vs other Thais in their home country won't be as transferable in general to K-1 rules.

Huh?

Buakaw and Sitthichai were able to adjust, but other typical Thais can't adjust? How presumptuous!

Buakaw, Sitthichai, Kaew and Kaoklai all fall under that "typical Thai" group. They were all "points" fighters. Jomthong who everyone gets a boner over and would do so great in kickboxing is a "point" fighter and basically never finishes Thai opponents. I mean, outside of punch first fighters, who isn't a points fighter? All great Thais win the vast majority of the time by points.

Why is it that Kongsak wouldn't be able to adjust, but Buakaw and Sitthichai have? What did they bring to the table leaving the stadiums that he doesn't have?

 

[SuperLuigi]

The western boxing-esque K-1 criteria is EXACTLY how i think the majority of Muay Thai would be scored if it became popular in America. K-1 rules with elbows in America, just like AJKF, that would be a dream come true for me.

I also think the West would be very receptive to this style. Is there any small promotions that have attempted this kind of rule set in America or Europe?

 

[PivotPunch]

It should simply depend on whether it does damage if it damages the arms it should score if the other guy also moves away from the kick or the kicker doesn't kick hard enough then it shouldn't score.
It doesn#t matter whether it was intentional or not if the kick moves the guy and does damage it should score if the other guy just got lucky but the kick did no damage then it shouldn't score

 

[shinkyoku]

IMO, kicks that are taken (or blocked) with arms should not score. If the kick is hard enough (or block bad enough) that the arms takes damage, it will show later in the fight when the arm start to slow down.

 

[DastardlyMass]

I also think the West would be very receptive to this style. Is there any small promotions that have attempted this kind of rule set in America or Europe?

you do realize international mt and lion fights in the usa use basically this rule set except kicks to the arms count

 

[SuperLuigi]

you do realize international mt and lion fights in the usa use basically this rule set except kicks to the arms count

Are sweeps and clinch grappling not allowed in Lion Fights and European MT?