Ryan hall interview talking about junk bjj technique

[Deltafarce]

In the lex Friedman podcast he says how a lot of fundamentals are actually junk.

Any further explanation?

He talks about the shrimp but I didn’t understand his point

 

[Esile]

In the lex Friedman podcast he says how a lot of fundamentals are actually junk.

Any further explanation?

He talks about the shrimp but I didn’t understand his point

Rolling and spinning around don't seem to work well either.

 

[Kforcer]

Rolling and spinning around don't seem to work well either.

Seems like its worked pretty well for him. He's 8-2. And the entry he used in his loss was a very unusual one, certainly not his normal entries. It is an entry I've seen demonstrated often, but rarely used in competition. The fact that it didn't work isn't an indictment on spinning or rolling leg attacks anymore the failure of Harold Howard's front flip into a kick is an indictment on the efficacy of kicks. It is essentially a version of the technique at 1:53 that he is using:

Not saying that technique would never work; I've used variations on it, but it is a more obscure, less common technique and like I said, the fact that Hall didn't pull it off in his fight doesn't somehow discredit the whole endeavor of rolling for the legs somehow.

 

[Kforcer]

Rolling and spinning around don't seem to work well either.

That said, I'm sure you're just showing that by the own standards by which Ryan Hall discredits certain BJJ fundamentals, elements of his own game could just as well be discredited. I didn't see the interview, but that could very well be fair enough. It is hard to believe that he provides sufficient justification for his claim, if his claim really was what the OP paraphrased.

 

[GKY]

I’d imagine that’s the case for many sports that aren’t extremely old or fairly one dimensional like sprinting.

Take basketball for example, it has a rich storied history, generates billions of dollars annually. It took 40 years from the introduction of the 3 point line and a sniper named Stephan Curry to actually shift the paradigm of how people play.

MMA is another example. Cage walking changed the game for strikers, then Khabib showed how leg triangles and wrist grabs actually makes that a horrible strategy.

My point is there’s usually unexplored (or at least not popular) strategies in every sport and some will be gold and most will be garbage.

 

[Esile]

Seems like its worked pretty well for him. He's 8-2. And the entry he used in his loss was a very unusual one, certainly not his normal entries. It is an entry I've seen demonstrated often, but rarely used in competition. The fact that it didn't work isn't an indictment on spinning or rolling leg attacks anymore the failure of Harold Howard's front flip into a kick is an indictment on the efficacy of kicks. It is essentially a version of the technique at 1:53 that he is using:

Not saying that technique would never work; I've used variations on it, but it is a more obscure, less common technique and like I said, the fact that Hall didn't pull it off in his fight doesn't somehow discredit the whole endeavor of rolling for the legs somehow.

I was just kidding, I actually agree with you, rolling for leg locks can obviously work very well and it has been proved to death even at the highest level, including in Japanese MMA where soccer kicks and stomps are allowed.

 

[updowniri]

Probably something like armbars from the guard.

 

[Kforcer]

I was just kidding, I actually agree with you, rolling for leg locks can obviously work very well and it has been proved to death even at the highest level, including in Japanese MMA where soccer kicks and stomps are allowed.

Yeah, I figured you were just applying Hall's own standards back at him, which is fair enough.

 

[Human Bass]

The Musumeci leg lock could become a new meta for mma. It avoids punches very easily.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Probably something like armbars from the guard.

Yeah a lot of moves they teach beginners as fundamentals are done completely different by everyone at the high level. Armbar from guard was the first one I thought about

 

[EndlessCritic]

The "traditional" armbar from mount, where you put both hands on your opponent's chest and spin around is absolute junk.

 

[maximus__]

The "traditional" armbar from mount, where you put both hands on your opponent's chest and spin around is absolute junk.

It works pretty well against the untrained. People just need to remember back in the day this was developed to beat people that didn't know JJ. Now that people know those fundamentals and options against them you need new options.

Roll with a day one student and force yourself to use the basic stuff. It's pretty funny to see it work so well.

 

[EndlessCritic]

It works pretty well against the untrained. People just need to remember back in the day this was developed to beat people that didn't know JJ. Now that people know those fundamentals and options against them you need new options.

Roll with a day one student and force yourself to use the basic stuff. It's pretty funny to see it work so well.

The fact that something might work against someone who is sufficiently bad is not an argument.

The "traditional" armbar I described is strictly worse than a number of other armbars/attacks. There is no reason for it to exist.

 

[maximus__]

The fact that something might work against someone who is sufficiently bad is not an argument.

The "traditional" armbar I described is strictly worse than a number of other armbars/attacks. There is no reason for it to exist.

It's just a comment on where JJ technique came from that's all. I agree there are plenty of better versions, but we all know people first reaction is the bench-press when untrained. It's there all day. Same with things like shrimping to recover guard as Hall mentioned in that podcast. You shrimp against an uuntrained person and you will recover every time.

It doesn't mean those things are useless, it just means you shouldn't base your game around those things and need other options.

 

[EndlessCritic]

It's just a comment on where JJ technique came from that's all. I agree there are plenty of better versions, but we all know people first reaction is the bench-press when untrained. It's there all day. Same with things like shrimping to recover guard as Hall mentioned in that podcast. You shrimp against an uuntrained person and you will recover every time.

It doesn't mean those things are useless, it just means you shouldn't base your game around those things and need other options.

Okay but the alternatives to shrimping Hall proposes are advanced and can be difficult to implement without sufficient skill. Shrimping is comparatively easy to learn and implement as opposed to inverting and other guard recovery methods.

The "traditional" junk armbar is just taking a needless risk with a total lack of control.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Okay but the alternatives to shrimping Hall proposes are advanced and can be difficult to implement without sufficient skill. Shrimping is comparatively easy to learn and implement as opposed to inverting and other guard recovery methods.

The "traditional" junk armbar is just taking a needless risk with a total lack of control.

Agree. I learned the "traditional" armbar from mount back in 1997 with Rigan Machado watching from 5 feet away sitting matside. At the time I thought mind blown and much better than the version I learned in Judo. But in the years since, I've discarded both as dogshit vs. a trained opponent. S-mount just works better even vs. a noob trying to benchpress you.

 

[yetanother]

The "traditional" armbar from mount, where you put both hands on your opponent's chest and spin around is absolute junk.

Isn't the use case of this when they are extending their arms to push you the fuck away from mount?

 

[maximus__]

Okay but the alternatives to shrimping Hall proposes are advanced and can be difficult to implement without sufficient skill. Shrimping is comparatively easy to learn and implement as opposed to inverting and other guard recovery methods.

The "traditional" junk armbar is just taking a needless risk with a total lack of control.

I don't disagree with you, but it was taught to fill a certain place. Once you got past that point and attacked armbars from other positions you change the way you do it anyway, but not the response to the benchpress.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Isn't the use case of this when they are extending their arms to push you the fuck away from mount?

In nearly 15 years of training BJJ, I can't say I've ever had anyone do this to me, so I can't even tell you right now what I think is the stronger option.

Though my intuition would be to say that I would push one arm across his body, drop my chest on his elbow, and do the Shawn Williams armbar.

 

[Matsukaze]

I haven't heard the interview but how is shrimping or the mechanics of it bad tech?? The shrimp mechanic is involved in so many escapes its crazy.