Posture and the "chin"

[ihatenewcarsmel]

I was looking at what my gym advocates as perfect boxing posture (which I mostly disagree with)

I slowly started to move away from this after going to legit gyms (One Kicks) and started to look at professionals with "granite" chins i.e. Toney, Bhop, Oliver McCall, Foreman, and Tua (most specifically the last 2 because people threw the kitchen sink at them and they just didn't seem phased). Also looked at the posture and positioning thread (some great posts btw, highly recommended).

Anyway the key things with these 2 guys' stances are:
-Chin down (tucked towards the collar rather than the chest)
-Shoulders down
-Weight seems evenly distributed, if not, 60-40 off the back foot (opposite to what photo 1 recommends)
-Eyes on opponent (not all the time as there are many examples with Foreman in the video where his eyes aren't on Holyfield)

Foreman:
Forgot where I found the pictures, any would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, this video will be used as an illustration.

At 0:50, he gets teed off on by Holyfield for a while, eating many unanswered punches, however he keeps his posture, and despite having his eyes closed for a few of them, a lot of them don't seem to have the impact that they should i.e. the force is absorbed very well by Foreman.
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Tua:
Assuming that Tua was usually the shorter fighter, one can see that with him standing like this, the main target (if you're punching down) is his forehead, along with his massive neck/shoulders/traps stabilizing his head, you would have needed a hammer to hurt this guy.

He keeps this posture as he's punching which makes an interesting tid bit in the fight video.

At 2:09 both Tua and Ibeabuchi land their respective hooks, however, Ike's hook seems to just glance off Tua's face whereas Ike seems to get all the force of the blow. I know there are other factors (better position, power ect.) however, I still thought it was noteworthy.

The whole fight has some amazing examples, as Tua really isn't a defensive wizard, however it seems like his stance only gives his opponent a target where it is nearly impossible to hurt the guy despite hitting him as hard as possible.
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Bernard:
Here's Bernard discussing some relevant points starting at 4:23 along with a good exercise to keep your chin tucked if you don't do it already.
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Anyway I tried this in sparring and it felt like very hard shots were nothing, except for hooks, I had a pulled muscle in the back of my neck so when my head jarred, I felt it in the back of my head.

I had a long ass thread about this, that wouldn't load when tried to preview the post and then logged me out. So this is a cropped version but I just really wanted to hear what you guys think:

Am I right/wrong, am I missing some subtleties, or am I missing everything?

 

[SaiWa]

1. the stance is a bit too square for my preference.. that was my original stance when i first started boxing (without proper training). i wanted to box like mike tyson.. no one can box like mike tyson. or what i mean is no one can box as effectively as he did it (imo).

2. picture looks more like 60-40 weight towards the front and states that it allows a powerful cross delivery which is wrong. should be the other way around as u stated (IMO). my back heel is only slightly raised if raised at all.

 

[Babba]

That first picture is the worst garbage i've seen in a long time. to stand like that with back foot up, you can deliever a very quick right cross. but you should relax your upper body and not turn it stiff and round your shoulders forward lol.

have your back foot on the ground and shoulders in neutral, not in the horrible position like 50 year old ex boxers from latvia or estonia

 

[PivotPunch]

1. the stance is a bit too square for my preference.. that was my original stance when i first started boxing (without proper training). i wanted to box like mike tyson.. no one can box like mike tyson. or what i mean is no one can box as effectively as he did it (imo).

2. picture looks more like 60-40 weight towards the front and states that it allows a powerful cross delivery which is wrong. should be the other way around as u stated (IMO). my back heel is only slightly raised if raised at all.

Even Tyson wasn't as square as on this picture if I remember correctly and he wasn't that hunched over which jsut makes you an easy target for uppercuts. And yes I imagine having 60% of your weight on your lead foot makes your rear hand weaker and not stronger you get the power from transfering the weight if you have your weight on the front foot there's less weight to transfer.
I can't think of any good technician who ahs the stance as in the pic ok there are some square fighters but even they are not that square and many fighter have their weight on their front foot but it just doesn't look like a good posture on the picture.
The only thing this stance does is making your lead hook faster (you can throw a fast lead hook when you stand bladed but only if you sacrifiece power) and making your lead hook stronger (correct me if I'm wrong). But that exactly the opposite of what they say it does so I doubt whoever wrote that knows what he's talking about (again correct me if it's me who's wrong)
There are some fighters whith a similar stance (especially Mexican boxers) but this shouldn't be the recommended stance for most fighters.
I think I've seen a few times how some boxer have a similar stance at certain points in fights but it's not their main stance (I think Floyd stays that way when he's looking for the pull counter which is probably hard to do when he stays very bladed)

 

[Babba]

Even Tyson wasn't as square as on this picture if I remember correctly and he wasn't that hunched over which jsut makes you an easy target for uppercuts. And yes I imagine having 60% of your weight on your lead foot makes your rear hand weaker and not stronger you get the power from transfering the weight if you have your weight on the front foot there's less weight to transfer.
I can't think of any good technician who ahs the stance as in the pic ok there are some square fighters but even they are not that square and many fighter have their weight on their front foot but it just doesn't look like a good posture on the picture.
The only thing this stance does is making your lead hook faster (you can throw a fast lead hook when you stand bladed but only if you sacrifiece power) and making your lead hook stronger (correct me if I'm wrong). But that exactly the opposite of what they say it does so I doubt whoever wrote that knows what he's talking about (again correct me if it's me who's wrong)
There are some fighters whith a similar stance (especially Mexican boxers) but this shouldn't be the recommended stance for most fighters.
I think I've seen a few times how some boxer have a similar stance at certain points in fights but it's not their main stance (I think Floyd stays that way when he's looking for the pull counter which is probably hard to do when he stays very bladed)

a lot of people can try to lure you in with this for a pull counter with this shtty posture and arms hanging at their sides, but this dude looks stiffer than a board, also a hook can be shot from that positon lol

 

[SummerStriker]

Are their any famous boxers that fight with their shoulders raised? I was always taught "chin down, shoulders up." Reading on here, I do feel like my neck is in a stronger position with them down. I do, however, block a lot of shots on my raised shoulder.

 

[PivotPunch]

Are their any famous boxers that fight with their shoulders raised? I was always taught "chin down, shoulders up." Reading on here, I do feel like my neck is in a stronger position with them down. I do, however, block a lot of shots on my raised shoulder.

Another thing about the shoulders upa rgument is it will make you stiff with most of your punches. Ok you should try to hide your chin behind your shoulders when you throw a punch but the way he stands in the pic looks incredibly stiff.
I think Sinister gets extremely angry if/when he sees this pic it's the exact opposite of what he likes

 

[SummerStriker]

Another thing about the shoulders upa rgument is it will make you stiff with most of your punches. Ok you should try to hide your chin behind your shoulders when you throw a punch but the way he stands in the pic looks incredibly stiff.
I think Sinister gets extremely angry if/when he sees this pic it's the exact opposite of what he likes

I think some people perceive stiffness when they see me, but I actually feel no tension in my punches. Empathy isn't the same as actually feeling what the other person feels. They are as fast as can be, as unstiff as any other martial arts move, like a snap kick.

I don't really doubt the idea that you take a punch better with the shoulders down. I was more just asking if there are any visual aids to go with the idea, like boxers with their shoulders up while fighting.

This looks like a good up vs. down photo.

 

[PivotPunch]

I think some people perceive stiffness when they see me, but I actually feel no tension in my punches. Empathy isn't the same as actually feeling what the other person feels. They are as fast as can be, as unstiff as any other martial arts move, like a snap kick.

I don't really doubt the idea that you take a punch better with the shoulders down. I was more just asking if there are any visual aids to go with the idea, like boxers with their shoulders up while fighting.

This looks like a good up vs. down photo.

I misread your post. I doubt that you take punches better with your shoulders down I think it makes little to no difference sincethe shoulders don't stabilize your head. Do the lats stabilize the head I'm not sure about that if they do having your shoulders up could really even help to take punches but I don't think the do. Maybe the guy who wrote the stuff on the pic just automatically tensed his neck when he lifted his shoulders and thus took punches better which made him think the high shoulders affected his punch resistence depsite it being jsut his neck.
Siver is really stiffer than Swanson but I admit it doesn't have to be because of his high shoulders. Siver is much closer to the guy in the pic but he is a kickboxer while Swanson is a boxing based striker so that even supports my argument.
Joe Louis and Hopkins both protect their chin with their lead shoulder but they have the exact opposite stance and didn't have to lift their shoulders up that unnaturally.
Does having your shoulders high really make a difference if you stand that square? That's a question ebcause I really don't know but I don't think it makes much of a difference if you stand that square it's unliky that half inch in extra protection is going to make much of a difference. And oldschool fighters and fighters who often block punches with their shoulders all have a pretty bladed stance it's a difference when you throw punches then of course the shoulder from which you throw the punch should protect your chin but overall I don't think the shoulders are much of a factor if you fight that square

 

[dumykount]

Pretty square. Dont like the hand on the cheekbone but have heard a lot of people teach/preach this. Always learned to relax the shoulders.

Imo if you made these adjustments some of the others would have to fall into place to make the stance much more effective and closer to what I have been taught and employ. The picture is not the worst example of fighter stance/posture but not what I would hope a decent school would be using as the example of perfect form. Blade off, pull the hand off the face and relax the shoulders and the body will compensate and imo move into a better stance

 

[NoSmilez]

the original photo posted by the ts. The 60/40 stance leads to leaning forward a bit and makes the person easier to hit. He is also very squared . I don't think this position is optimal for straight boxing.

 

[SummerStriker]

And oldschool fighters and fighters who often block punches with their shoulders all have a pretty bladed stance it's a difference when you throw punches then of course the shoulder from which you throw the punch should protect your chin but overall I don't think the shoulders are much of a factor if you fight that square

The shots that my shoulders end up blocking the most are the hook punch when clinching and the 45 degree snap, TKD round house kick. The kick comes up so fast, but the angle makes it hard for people to get it over the shoulder sometimes.

 

[PivotPunch]

The shots that my shoulders end up blocking the most are the hook punch when clinching and the 45 degree snap, TKD round house kick. The kick comes up so fast, but the angle makes it hard for people to get it over the shoulder sometimes.

But infighting/clinching with no space between you and your opponent is a different world altogether and today there are many if not most boxers who can't fight at that distance so that's something different and even at the inside the boxers today who are good at pure infighting are Mayweather who also doesn't stand square on the inside, James Toney does the same and Hopkins and Ward who often maul and fight dirty but when they fight clean on the inside they also don't stand square.
And an important thing is that you are talking about kickboxing but on the pic there's at least written it's meant as a textbook pure boxing stance which makes it even worse too square up that much.
And what i really don't understand as well is that there's written that the toes of your back foot point forward helps you with your movement but I don't see it?
I trained TKD and Karate so I learned standing bladed so maybe that has a influence on me but when I try to move the way he stands in the pic I don't move any better and the added weight on the front foot makes it much harder to move it does the exact opposite with your weight on your front foot your movement slows down big time

 

[SummerStriker]

But infighting/clinching with no space between you and your opponent is a different world altogether and today there are many if not most boxers who can't fight at that distance so that's something different and even at the inside the boxers today who are good at pure infighting are Mayweather who also doesn't stand square on the inside, James Toney does the same and Hopkins and Ward who often maul and fight dirty but when they fight clean on the inside they also don't stand square.
And an important thing is that you are talking about kickboxing but on the pic there's at least written it's meant as a textbook pure boxing stance which makes it even worse too square up that much.
And what i really don't understand as well is that there's written that the toes of your back foot point forward helps you with your movement but I don't see it?
I trained TKD and Karate so I learned standing bladed so maybe that has a influence on me but when I try to move the way he stands in the pic I don't move any better and the added weight on the front foot makes it much harder to move it does the exact opposite with your weight on your front foot your movement slows down big time

Sorry, sorry, I wasn't defending the picture. I was going along with you that it wasn't optimal.

Not that I'm anything special. I'm not fighter and this video isn't an instructional. Here is a video I made for a thread on front kicks or something. I know it doesn't look like a raise my shoulders much, especially from the angle of the video, but from side on it makes a big difference when it comes to being hit in the face. You can see my shoulders drop at the end when I turn back to the camera.



I've read really strong opinions on shoulder position on this forum, but its a topic that I haven't seen as much real life examples of. I'm just hoping someone knows a fighter or a fight where people had their shoulders up, and how they did getting hit.

 

[PivotPunch]

Sorry, sorry, I wasn't defending the picture. I was going along with you that it wasn't optimal.

Not that I'm anything special. I'm not fighter and this video isn't an instructional. Here is a video I made for a thread on front kicks or something. I know it doesn't look like a raise my shoulders much, especially from the angle of the video, but from side on it makes a big difference when it comes to being hit in the face. You can see my shoulders drop at the end when I turn back to the camera.



I've read really strong opinions on shoulder position on this forum, but its a topic that I haven't seen as much real life examples of. I'm just hoping someone knows a fighter or a fight where people had their shoulders up, and how they did getting hit.

I'm not a fighter either and not totally against raising your shoulder but in the pic it just looks a little bit stiff

 

[Sinister]

Chin down, chest up, shoulders in the sockets (activates the lats better for stabilization purposes as it relates to the posterior chain as a whole):

And before anyone remarks about both Hopkins and Marquez having been down, yes they've been down. Marquez particularly on account of his being heavy on the front-foot and liable for counters that knock him sideways (see: Mayweather knockdown), however, there's a reason neither of these men have ever been knocked out. They never quite absorb the full force of a blow in their neck, because even if they're not moving, their shoulder/head positions allow for some downward dissipation of the force of a landed punch.

 

[SummerStriker]

Sinister, thank you.

After you pointed it out on here, I tried it a little shadow boxing before. Intuitively, it feels like you are right. I can feel that when my shoulders are down, my neck and back are steady. With the shoulders up, even a little, even just one, the neck moves and turns like it is less connected.

These guys in this video, I like them, because they have their shoulders up and are doing a block about like how I was taught, so it makes a great visual aid.



The way they are blocking the kick, bringing one hand up high, raises the shoulder. If you don't raise the shoulder, you point the elbow up which is also wrong (is it?). There are other blocks and covers I like that raise the shoulder. Even the way I cover my face during a punch comes from the raised shoulder. God knows every time I get hit in the face, I'm trying to do something, either punch or kick or block, and my shoulder raises for most of it.

That way I think is pretty prevalent. I'd pay a lot of money to see a complete system of something different, using the way you stand and keep your posture. I think something like that would be worth a lot, not just the stance, but the whole system of defense.

Sometimes I think my teacher shared a teacher with Bas Ruten because so much of his thing is familiar.



That stance is how I've always seen it.

 

[Sinister]

There are Muay Thai fighters who use MOSTLY positioning as opposed to limb-placement for their defense. And I say Muay Thai because it's mostly they who are in rings and can be seen actively fighting. FWIW TKD fighters also tend to have their shoulders down and in the sockets, and their backs straight when they punch, they defend through other means as well.

They exist, they're just not the status quo.