Point scoring for turtle sweeps

[kuristus]

I was wondering whether it's ever possible to achieve points for a "sweep" from turtle. For example, if you counter an attempted guard pass by going briefly to your knees, then immediately reversing before the passer has a chance to establish top turtle, do you get points? For example:


...here, Telles pauses for the instruction, but if he just continued through the motion for the reversal, would he get points for a sweep?

 

[Newcastle]

I believe according to IBJJF rules you do not get points for sweeps from this position. The turtle position is not considered a guard. I'm under the impression that the guy on top would actually get an advantage point prior to any sort of reversal from the bottom players position.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

From my experience, "sweeping" from turtle counts no more than reversing from side control or under mount.

Your reward is the improvement in position and whatever you can do from that position.

Now, I use turtle a lot to avoid having my guard passed (when I've failed at other retention efforts). I'd rather give up the advantage than 3 points and I have much better success escaping while turtled up than I do from under an established side control.

In your question, if you reversed before the person established any sort of top control to get their advantage, you'd still only end up with a reversal and not a sweep....it didn't initiate from guard. You'd not lose an advantage, but you'd get no points....just the improved position.

 

[BJJArsenal]

No sweep. Turtle is not a guard so it is just a reversal.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It depends. If the ref thinks you re-established some sort of guard as you were sweeping (meaning the sweep involved leg contact with your opponent and using the leg to help execute the sweep), then you could get points. I've seen Telles get points for reversals from turtle that involved using one of his legs as a lever on his opponent. But don't count on it. Since this isn't considered a guard, you probably won't get points from here regardless of how you execute the sweep.

 

[esteven]

It depends. If the ref thinks you re-established some sort of guard as you were sweeping (meaning the sweep involved leg contact with your opponent and using the leg to help execute the sweep), then you could get points. I've seen Telles get points for reversals from turtle that involved using one of his legs as a lever on his opponent. But don't count on it. Since this isn't considered a guard, you probably won't get points from here regardless of how you execute the sweep.

Also, from your description, if the sweep included moving into turtle, but was executed as one continuous motion from guard (if you, say, managed to somehow hit a kneeling seoi nage from butterfly guard), then it should count as a sweep. It won't if the sweep comes from an established turtle, though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Also, from your description, if the sweep included moving into turtle, but was executed as one continuous motion from guard (if you, say, managed to somehow hit a kneeling seoi nage from butterfly guard), then it should count as a sweep. It won't if the sweep comes from an established turtle, though.

If he was standing, it would be a TD. If you were both on your knees, which would never ever happen, I think it would technically be a reversal and not count for points. The closest analog would be when a guy tries to take your back and you drag him over the top seio nage style...doesn't score. You have to use your legs for it to be a sweep, or him standing for it to be a TD.

 

[esteven]

I believe that IBJJF (and most other) rules stipulate that a "sweep" can only be initiated from a guard position, but not that the legs need to be used. Any move that brings you from bottom guard to a top position should count as a sweep; conceivably, then, it would still be a sweep if the movement involved turning to your knees, so long as it was initiated from a guard, and movement didn't stop until your opponent was on the ground.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I believe that IBJJF (and most other) rules stipulate that a "sweep" can only be initiated from a guard position, but not that the legs need to be used. Any move that brings you from bottom guard to a top position should count as a sweep; conceivably, then, it would still be a sweep if the movement involved turning to your knees, so long as it was initiated from a guard, and movement didn't stop until your opponent was on the ground.

I don't know...arm drags that end you up on top are not necessarily scored as sweeps AFAIK, even though they start from guard. Perhaps an IBJJF ref could provide some insight. If only we had one that posts on this board...

 

[Einarr]

I believe according to IBJJF rules you do not get points for sweeps from this position. The turtle position is not considered a guard. I'm under the impression that the guy on top would actually get an advantage point prior to any sort of reversal from the bottom players position.

Being turtled is considered a negative position for you so improving your position to the top from here is considered a reversal not a sweep. The reward of reversing the position is that you're no longer in a bad position. Unless your name is Eduardo Telles turtle is not a position you want to be in, ideally.

 

[Sub Dude]

Arm drags that start from a guard position where you end up on top & remain for 3 secs absolutely count as sweeps. The legs DO NOT have to be involved to get sweep points. By definition, a sweep is going from the bottom to the top from any guard position. As far as turtle, it is not considered a guard position, so reversals from the turtle are generally not counted as a sweep. However, if a competitor starts from an established guard position and in one continuous motion aggresively initiates the turtle position on their own and continues through the movement to come on top, it can be considered a sweep. However, if they turtle in response to a pass attempt, they are no longer in a guard position, and in fact will give up an advantage to the other competitor in this situation.

 

[dunerider]

Guard is defined by the use of one or more legs to block the opponent from reaching side-control or north-south
position over the athlete on bottom.

so turtle is not considered a "guard" rather more of a position.

 

[lechien]

no points as turtle is not considered a gaurd. it would just be a reversal. no point or advantages.

 

[kuristus]

Thanks, everyone. So my take home message is...definitely don't count on getting any points. But it's still possible...maybe? Ref's discretion? Gnn...

Perhaps an IBJJF ref could provide some insight. If only we had one that posts on this board...

Pretty please?

 

[lechien]

I don't know...arm drags that end you up on top are not necessarily scored as sweeps AFAIK, even though they start from guard. Perhaps an IBJJF ref could provide some insight. If only we had one that posts on this board...

4. 6 sweeps

When the athlete on bottom with the opponent in his/her guard or half-guard gets to his/her feet , puts the opponent
down and maintains the grips necessary to hold the opponent in bottom position for 3 (three) seconds.


We actually have a IBJJF ref who post in F12 but she must be busy.