Pillow fists??? Explanation wanted

[Miesha]

Hey guys, ive been into MMA for some time now, on n off for a few years, but Ive never fully understood the term "pillow-fisted" etc. When I look at Bisping, Stipe and others, who are oft referred to as such, I know for fact they would knock me out in one punch no prob and Im no small guy and do have an actual MMA experience (never been in a cage tho).
Now, I can see that landing a 100.000 strikes on a guy in 15 minutes without dropping him is somewhat suspicious, but why is that? Is their technique off (even tho they been in the business for so long)? Cause it cant be lack of strenght for sure.
Any insight appreciated!

 

[jeremyemilio]

Anyone that thinks having big KO power is simply a choice is delusional. GSP has below average KO power, he didn't go for the KO cause he normally can't TKO/KO people and it just puts himself at more risk of getting tagged and losing. Hendo always had KO power, GSP doesn't.

I'm not denying that having heavy hands is a legit thing, but if you think there was any indication in the first half of Decision Dan's career that he was a guy with exceptionally heavy hands, you have a very selective memory.

Seven of Hendo's first 12 wins were by decision (along with 1 KO, 2 TKOs, and 2 Subs).

Hendo started starching guys when he started launching himself through the air with his fist. Which is also around the time that he became a 50/50 fighter who either got the KO or lost the fight.

We've never seen GSP load up and throw a punch like this:

If he did, and he connected, I can pretty much gaurantee you, he'd get the KO. Hell Bisping would get the KO if he threw a punch like this and connected on the button like Hendo did here.

But most top fighters don't throw punches like this because:

GSP sure as hell isn't going to risk that in a fight that he's running away with (which is pretty much every fight he's ever been in)... and Hendo wouldn't either, if he felt he had the choice (proven by the fact that he didn't, when he did have the choice).

 

[Erick Silva]

An KO capable punch or a strong chin are things that you born with (or not)...

Some guys, like Belfort, Rumble, JDS just need to connect, even tough from awkward angles, and they put guys to sleep....

And you get guys like Georges St Pierre, DOminick Cruz, who can connect as clean as possible and don't even drop their opponents...

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Fists like pillows to tuck Duffee into his eternal slumber.

 

[McGeezle]

I've never understood the term 'Cody Pfister'

 

[platypus44]

Is hand size a factor?

 

[Erick Silva]

In Karate, there are technics tom improve the punch power, but I think it's bullshit...

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I'm not denying that having heavy hands is a legit thing, but if you think there was any indication in the first half of Decision Dan's career that he was a guy with exceptionally heavy hands, you have a very selective memory.

Seven of Hendo's first 12 wins were by decision (along with 1 KO, 2 TKOs, and 2 Subs).

Hendo started starching guys when he started launching himself through the air with his fist. Which is also around the time that he became a 50/50 fighter who either got the KO or lost the fight.

We've never seen GSP load up and throw a punch like this:

If he did, and he connected, I can pretty much gaurantee you, he'd get the KO. Hell Bisping would get the KO if he threw a punch like this and connected on the button like Hendo did here.

But most top fighters don't throw punches like this because:

GSP sure as hell isn't going to risk that in a fight that he's running away with (which is pretty much every fight he's ever been in)... and Hendo wouldn't either, if he felt he had the choice (proven by the fact that he didn't, when he did have the choice).

Not true, he was rocking guys early in his career as well, he rocked Wanderlei while he was decision Dan(then KOed Renzo and Akira in his next 2 fights). Henderson was a horrible example IMO cause he's always clearly had big KO power he just didn't go for the KO early in his career cause his striking skill wasn't there yet and his base is wrestling.

GSP is not and never will be a big puncher, he doesn't have it, you're either born with KO power or not and GSP wasn't born with KO power.

GSP couldn't have just KOed people if he wanted to like you said.

I don't think that Belfort gif is a good indication that overhands are particularly dangerous(for the person throwing one), the dangerous part(stupid part) in that gif is Hendo faking the same punch like 3 times in a row while just standing in front of Vitor.

GSP loaded up more on his strikes early in his career but he still only got TKOs, he just has below average KO power for some reason.

 

[Erick Silva]

I believe that guys with without KO punch power should focus in the kicking game...

When you kick someone in the head, they are going down... The power coming from your legs is way higher than your arms... If you get good at high kicks, for sure you will put some guys to sleep...

 

[yookfarb]

Punchers are made not born. GSP is a timid jabber. Guys like Frankie and Cruz have their feet all over the place and never sit down on their punches. Shorter compact guys are obviously going to register more knockouts because they are more muscular and the overhand right is the hardest punch in the book(aka the giant killer)

There is no such thing as a guy that just has KO power and another guy that is built and fights just like him that doesn't and it just defies all explanation.

 

[waldywaldy]

Lots of reasons. Technique, strenght and intent al have influence on how hard punches land. Then again, some people seem to have god given knock out power. But I think most of all it's a choice. I suppose bisping and miocic for example could ko people if they wanted to, if they threw everything full power they would ko somebody eventually. They just choose to stick and move and use volume to break their opponents down, because they think that's the way they'll win most.

 

[Franklin U.]

see Frankie Edgar
see Michael Bisping

 

[focal]

I never understood that either how you can train everyday and still can't drop a guy with a clean shot.

 

[Miesha]

I'm not denying that having heavy hands is a legit thing, but if you think there was any indication in the first half of Decision Dan's career that he was a guy with exceptionally heavy hands, you have a very selective memory.

Seven of Hendo's first 12 wins were by decision (along with 1 KO, 2 TKOs, and 2 Subs).

Hendo started starching guys when he started launching himself through the air with his fist. Which is also around the time that he became a 50/50 fighter who either got the KO or lost the fight.

If he did, and he connected, I can pretty much gaurantee you, he'd get the KO. Hell Bisping would get the KO if he threw a punch like this and connected on the button like Hendo did here.

GSP sure as hell isn't going to risk that in a fight that he's running away with (which is pretty much every fight he's ever been in)... and Hendo wouldn't either, if he felt he had the choice (proven by the fact that he didn't, when he did have the choice).

Yeah, theres much wisdom in your answer and I appreciate that! Shouldnt the term "pillow-fisted" translate as "pillow-minded" tho, as physically they dont seem to fall behind, its just their chosen style that makes the result?

 

[M Raid K]

Bisping wouldn't KO a fly with a single punch. None of his knockouts came via single punch, at least those which he scored since losing to Rashad Evans.

 

[aus101]

They don't load up nearly as much. Bisping, GSP and Cruz use footwork, they don't try and swing haymakers mindlessly.

That said they also just aren't as good at striking as boxers for example.
Do I think Conor naturally hits harder than say GSP and Bisping? I doubt it but he def has better technique.

 

[MMA IAN]

IMO it comes from a real lack of desire to hurt people. Bisping and GSP being examples of guys who often go to DEC. It often looks to me how I feel when I am sparring. They throw jabs, hooks, some overhands, but they rarely throw with viciousness or intent to hurt. It's all 50% power.

Then you get people like Lombard, Vitor, Lawler, who are trying to HURT you, not just punch you more than you can punch them.

For example put Bisping in to spar with Weidman and I imagine he'd do very well. In the cage? Completely different outcome.

Hope that makes sense

 

[aus101]

Not true, he was rocking guys early in his career as well, he rocked Wanderlei while he was decision Dan(then KOed Renzo and Akira in his next 2 fights). Henderson was a horrible example IMO cause he's always clearly had big KO power he just didn't go for the KO early in his career cause his striking skill wasn't there yet and his base is wrestling.

GSP is not and never will be a big puncher, he doesn't have it, you're either born with KO power or not and GSP wasn't born with KO power.

GSP couldn't have just KOed people if he wanted to like you said.

I don't think that Belfort gif is a good indication that overhands are particularly dangerous(for the person throwing one), the dangerous part(stupid part) in that gif is Hendo faking the same punch like 3 times in a row while just standing in front of Vitor.

GSP loaded up more on his strikes early in his career but he still only got TKOs, he just has below average KO power for some reason.

Lol this crap again. This kind of shit is what made Carlos Condit get GSPed. People like you would post how he has no power and how good strikers will be able to walk through them and take him out.

Carlos surged forward, preparing to eat some pillows before unloading.
No. Just no, it didn't work. He had his bell promptly rung with a crisp GSP combination and he realised he was in for a long night.

Elite WW's are very hard to finish and GSP doesn't load up. To think his strikes are pillow fisted is silly though. Fighter after fighter found that out the hard way.

 

[Puss]

I'm not so sure Bisping would KO you. Some people have got the power, while others can't do anything about their pillow fists.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Lol this crap again. This kind of shit is what made Carlos Condit get GSPed. People like you would post how he has no power and how good strikers will be able to walk through them and take him out.

Carlos surged forward, preparing to eat some pillows before unloading.
No. Just no, it didn't work. He had his bell promptly rung with a crisp GSP combination and he realised he was in for a long night.

Elite WW's are very hard to finish and GSP doesn't load up. To think his strikes are pillow fisted is silly though. Fighter after fighter found that out the hard way.

What the fuck are you talking about? I never said this, stop making assumptions and using straw man arguments and debate what I actually said if you disagree. Don't make shit up to disagree with what I didn't say, it's weird.

I said GSP has below average KO power and that he can't just simply put more into his punches to get KOs like other people were saying, one guy suggested that GSP would have KO power like Hendo if he simply tried to punch harder, that's retarded.

 

[Moezao]

An KO capable punch or a strong chin are things that you born with (or not)...

Some guys, like Belfort, Rumble, JDS just need to connect, even tough from awkward angles, and they put guys to sleep....

And you get guys like Georges St Pierre, DOminick Cruz, who can connect as clean as possible and don't even drop their opponents...

I agree with the strong chin part, but power punching can be learned. It's as much technique as it is killer instinct. A strong chin is a physical feature, KO power is using physics to your advantage. The reason some guys can't seem to knock someone out is either lack of accuracy( can't hit the chin properly) or are afraid ( to knock someone out you usually have to overcommit your strikes, ala Rumble).

Bisping is afraid.

 

[snizzar]

Technique/intent plays a huge part in getting KO's no doubt, but I think it's a little more than that. KO power really is an ageless debate that has never really been answered.

That said, I'm gonna go with the likes of Tyson/Cus D'Amato in that KO power past a certain threshold is a god given talent. Even among boxers who should have the superior skills/technique, some just fall short of the KO like Timothy Bradley (below average power) as compared to Manny. You can't teach somebody to hit as hard as GGG does.

 

[Miesha]

IMO it comes from a real lack of desire to hurt people. Bisping and GSP being examples of guys who often go to DEC. It often looks to me how I feel when I am sparring. They throw jabs, hooks, some overhands, but they rarely throw with viciousness or intent to hurt. It's all 50% power.

I see what youre saying. Its true it seems like their mental approach is different. Bisping wanting to collect them points and do his thing, GSP trying to be perfect in every single aspect instead of hurting his opponent. I guess they really just arent going for it.

 

[Munin]

force = mass * acceleration

it's about generating enough force to dislodge consciousness.

less mass at the point of contact means the fighter has to find ways to generate more acceleration, and vice versa.

 

[qw3rty]

I believe that guys with without KO punch power should focus in the kicking game...

When you kick someone in the head, they are going down... The power coming from your legs is way higher than your arms... If you get good at high kicks, for sure you will put some guys to sleep...

Yup, Pettis is an example of that
Barboza and Dantas probably too

 

[Defender]

IMO it comes from a real lack of desire to hurt people. Bisping and GSP being examples of guys who often go to DEC. It often looks to me how I feel when I am sparring. They throw jabs, hooks, some overhands, but they rarely throw with viciousness or intent to hurt. It's all 50% power.

I hate this, too.

I look at it as Defensive Offense. Throw the strike, hope it lands just right. But all along they are throwing it with the mindset of not getting off balance, not putting themselves in a bad position, not getting countered, etc.

So they throw that limb out there with the intention of getting it right back in place and not get hit. Phil Davis fights this way; like his biggest priority is to never get hit. But the biggest culprit to me was Mir. Every high kick I ever saw him throw was the same way you would throw a high kick while shadow boxing. You have to start slowing your own momentum in order to stop the kick and bring it back.

Fighters that throw a high kick with bad intentions usually spin all the way around if they miss. Mir would miss and just pull it straight back down.

 

[86'd]

I agree with the strong chin part, but power punching can be learned. It's as much technique as it is killer instinct. A strong chin is a physical feature, KO power is using physics to your advantage. The reason some guys can't seem to knock someone out is either lack of accuracy( can't hit the chin properly) or are afraid ( to knock someone out you usually have to overcommit your strikes, ala Rumble).

Bisping is afraid.

That's like saying a home run hitter in baseball can be learned. Shit even Barry bonds couldn't do that without adding artificial strength and size.

 

[Defender]

I agree with the strong chin part, but power punching can be learned. It's as much technique as it is killer instinct. A strong chin is a physical feature, KO power is using physics to your advantage. The reason some guys can't seem to knock someone out is either lack of accuracy( can't hit the chin properly) or are afraid ( to knock someone out you usually have to overcommit your strikes, ala Rumble).

Bisping is afraid.

Good example in Rumble. His strikes have full follow through and bad intentions.

No shadow boxing for him.

 

[ElusiveRiddum]

IMO it comes from a real lack of desire to hurt people. Bisping and GSP being examples of guys who often go to DEC. It often looks to me how I feel when I am sparring. They throw jabs, hooks, some overhands, but they rarely throw with viciousness or intent to hurt. It's all 50% power.

Then you get people like Lombard, Vitor, Lawler, who are trying to HURT you, not just punch you more than you can punch them.

For example put Bisping in to spar with Weidman and I imagine he'd do very well. In the cage? Completely different outcome.

Hope that makes sense

If I wasn't lazy, I'd post a pic of Cung Le's disfigured face.

Not everyone is born with the same physical attributes. Bisping doesnt have 1 punch KO power. What he does have though is good cardio and the mental fortitude to stick to a gameplan. So he's just fighting to his strength, like anyone else would do.

 

[koquerelle]

I never understood that either how you can train everyday and still can't drop a guy with a clean shot.

Not all baseball players can hit homeruns.
Not all hockey players have 95mph slapshots.
Not all women give great BJ.

 

[Escopeta]

I agree with the strong chin part, but power punching can be learned. It's as much technique as it is killer instinct. A strong chin is a physical feature, KO power is using physics to your advantage. The reason some guys can't seem to knock someone out is either lack of accuracy( can't hit the chin properly) or are afraid ( to knock someone out you usually have to overcommit your strikes, ala Rumble).

Bisping is afraid.

Technique can improve power to an extent, but there is a ceiling. I think it's mostly innate. Mayweather is one of the most mechanically sound and accurate punchers to ever exist. He has never been known as a KO artist and he's caught people over and over with some clean, hard shots. Boxing has had a ton of those type of guys. Some people simply do not posses the physical traits necessary for them to blast their opponent away.

Bisping fights as a volume striker out of necessity because he knows his limitations. If he had one punch concussive power in his genes, his style would be completely different than what it is now.

 

[LilMountain]

Not all baseball players can hit homeruns.
Not all hockey players have 95mph slapshots.
Not all women give great BJ.

If they trained every day...