Pedro Sauer Association and Gracie Combatives??

[gator28]

I have a friend who is moving to Va Bch and was looking at places to train. I mentioned Linxx since I know Cucci is a Sauer BB. I also told him to try out Gustavo Machado. So, he told me that Linxx is now doing the Gracie Combatives and Master Cycle curriculum. I was wondering if Sauer is somehow connected to this since Eddie Camden's school looks to be doing the same thing. Thanks for any info. Regardless, I think he's gonna end up at Machados.

 

[Deltafarce]

Why would t you want to learn combatives from a black belt?

 

[Matsukaze]

I train in the Pedro Sauer association and he does require his students to know self defense moves. He calls it Helio Gracie jiu jitsu tho and not Gracie Combatives.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Pedro Sauer is a bit of a sad case, he's such a legit old school guy but he's got some bad schools in his association. The whole Keith Owen - Ari Bolden thing was bad enough, but tales of giving out really soft belts has haunted his org for a while. If you have a Machado school I'd definitely go there over a Sauer affiliate.

 

[LJS199330]

Pedro Sauer is a bit of a sad case, he's such a legit old school guy but he's got some bad schools in his association. The whole Keith Owen - Ari Bolden thing was bad enough, but tales of giving out really soft belts has haunted his org for a while. If you have a Machado school I'd definitely go there over a Sauer affiliate.

Forgive me if I'm late to the party so to speak but I was offline and not in the social groups of jiu-jitsu for a long time. So if this question is late, absurd, been discussed, forgive me but here it is. What's the issue with Keith Owen and Ari Bolden?

 

[jujijimmy]

Search the long thread on ari

 

[Einarr]

I train in the Pedro Sauer association and he does require his students to know self defense moves. He calls it Helio Gracie jiu jitsu tho and not Gracie Combatives.

Helio's self defense stuff was garbage. Basically just bad Judo with a bit of Aikidon't throw in.

 

[Leify]

Pedro Sauer is a bit of a sad case, he's such a legit old school guy but he's got some bad schools in his association. The whole Keith Owen - Ari Bolden thing was bad enough, but tales of giving out really soft belts has haunted his org for a while. If you have a Machado school I'd definitely go there over a Sauer affiliate.

Linxx has produced some tough guys locally. I don't really know how the school curriculum/environment itself is these days, but historically they weren't turning out bad grapplers.

That said, the website does appear to have changed in the last year, and seems to indicate they have recently incorporated some of the Gracie programs.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Forgive me if I'm late to the party so to speak but I was offline and not in the social groups of jiu-jitsu for a long time. So if this question is late, absurd, been discussed, forgive me but here it is. What's the issue with Keith Owen and Ari Bolden?

Long story short, Ari Bolden was a fake black belt who put out a bunch of low quality videos that a lot of people watched, he was sketchy about defending his credentials, the few times he competed he got totally waxed, all of which made him infamous in the BJJ community. Keith Owen, who is a legit Pedro Sauer black belt, gave Ari a brown belt for reasons that are unclear to anyone. But suffice it to say that Ari would be a questionable blue belt based on his videos and competition footage, so it really reflected badly on Keith and by extension Pedro. You can google for more info, it was a pretty notorious case.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Linxx has produced some tough guys locally. I don't really know how the school curriculum/environment itself is these days, but historically they weren't turning out bad grapplers.

That said, the website does appear to have changed in the last year, and seems to indicate they have recently incorporated some of the Gracie programs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Pedro is fake or all his affiliates are bad. Far from it. He's a great fighter and has produced some very, very good guys. It just seems like his affiliate program may not be as well policed as it could be, and as such you can't assume a school is a really good school just because it's a Sauer affiliate. It may be, just do some research.

 

[Matsukaze]

Einarr... makes a valid point.. as far as "self-defense" there is better stuff out there... Pedro always says that you are not doing authentic Gracie jiu jitsu without the Helio self defense. I think its more of a tribute to Helio.. I could be wrong.

 

[jujijimmy]

I hate that self defense crap, it's basically kata on a unresisting adversary. Looks more like tma then Bjj. Garbage

 

[Alonbenav]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Pedro is fake or all his affiliates are bad. Far from it. He's a great fighter and has produced some very, very good guys. It just seems like his affiliate program may not be as well policed as it could be, and as such you can't assume a school is a really good school just because it's a Sauer affiliate. It may be, just do some research.

I started at a Pedro Sauer affiliate and his affiliates are still very active in my area. I count some of his affiliates black belts as my friends. I also had the pleasure of rolling with him at a seminar and chatting with him and he is a kind man with an incredibly sophisticated understanding technique.

That said, his name has been used to legitimize some shitty people through the association. Were I to move and a Pedro Sauer affiliate were one of my few choices, I'd be very sure to check it out in person for a little while first, because as Uchi Mata mentioned, it's not really a guarantee of quality anymore.

 

[lechien]

I hate that self defense crap, it's basically kata on a unresisting adversary. Looks more like tma then Bjj. Garbage

Each moves is based on the person touching, striking or grabbing you . Or holding a weapon.
What is wrong with that?

 

[Alonbenav]

Each moves is based on the person touching, striking or grabbing you . Or holding a weapon.
What is wrong with that?

Because very few of them have any connection to reality. Especially the knife and gun defenses.

 

[LJS199330]

Because very few of them have any connection to reality. Especially the knife and gun defenses.

The knife and gun I agree with. However if you do the Gracie Combatives with gloves, a mouthpiece, etc...you can work the clinch to take down, guard work, half guard work, in a very realistic manner. It's not fun but essential as some positions you normally like in sport grappling don't really translate well with a striking opponent.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The knife and gun I agree with. However if you do the Gracie Combatives with gloves, a mouthpiece, etc...you can work the clinch to take down, guard work, half guard work, in a very realistic manner. It's not fun but essential as some positions you normally like in sport grappling don't really translate well with a striking opponent.

I have no problem with that approach, though my impression is that most GC guys don't do a lot of that. What you're describing is basically combat BJJ, much like combat Sambo is Sambo with striking. I'd be down with that, but it would also entail learning enough striking so that your standup training was legit since otherwise you're just two untrained BJJ guys throwing haymakers.

 

[lechien]

Because very few of them have any connection to reality. Especially the knife and gun defenses.

Even the rest of them. Meaning not the knife and gun defense.

I was watching them yesterday and they seems pretty legit.

 

[Balto]

Even the rest of them. Meaning not the knife and gun defense.

I was watching them yesterday and they seems pretty legit.

I think a lot of them are artificially more complicated than they have to be. Since they are BJJ self defense, they all present grappling solutions to problems. However, a self defense situation is not a grappling match. I think a lot of the situations are much more easily solved using striking solutions.

For example, the famous headlock attack. Why no strike to the groin of the guy headlocking you? Drop your base, and it's right there. Hammerfist up into it from behind. That's the simplest, easiest way to get the guy to loosen it up so you can escape. I mean you can mess with all the other escape stuff too, but that's like the backup plan if just hitting to the groin doesn't get a reaction. Yet it's completely overlooked because striking is not the pure BJJ apparently.

Same idea for something like a two handed front choke. Yes, you can duck your head out, you can standing armbar the guy, etc. But it's way easier to just realize that the guy choking you now has no free hands to defend himself, use one of your two free hands to collapse both of his choking arms, and use your bonus free hand to elbow him in the face. You can also headbutt. Again, this is all simpler, higher percentage, and tougher to counter than any of the pure grappling defenses.

Most of the striking self defense stuff I learned in Karate is way simpler and better. BJJ is obsessed with using only grappling to deal with everything. It is not the most efficient way.

 

[LJS199330]

I have no problem with that approach, though my impression is that most GC guys don't do a lot of that. What you're describing is basically combat BJJ, much like combat Sambo is Sambo with striking. I'd be down with that, but it would also entail learning enough striking so that your standup training was legit since otherwise you're just two untrained BJJ guys throwing haymakers.

True, very true. But even the unskilled haymaker can knock you out if you're not used to clinching as such. I agree though that for a skilled striker type opponent that could be hard to replicate.
The thing that is interesting though about real fighting jiu-jitsu is that it's actually pretty simple when you think about it. Clinch, get mount, hit a guy in the face until he turns or gives up an arm. If in the guard you control the wrists or the triceps/biceps, head, etc....they stand up you kick, sweep, or get back on your feet in base...etc... Not fun but much more simple then the sportive aspects in some ways.