Pankration

[isam_134]

can anybody tell me if pankration is useful to add to my ground game. And was it very simple to learn.

 

[Deioces]

pankration is a tournament not a style to my knowledge.

 

[Teedoh74]

pankration is a martial art similar to mma.

 

[WNYguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

 

[isam_134]

I know what pankration is. I just wanted an opinion if it was useful for mma. Sorry if this ounds angry.

 

[isam_134]

or should I just stick with the bjj

 

[CrackaJack]

its old school MMA, before the regulated rules and shit...if anything it was most like the old UFC's with no rules and shit.. If its a martial art...its ancient and probably not TONS too effective considering you never hear any of the good fighters give it props for helpin em win and shit.

 

[Half Boston Crab]

The problem would be to travel back in time to ancient Greece.

 

[knoxpk]

The problem would be to travel back in time to ancient Greece.

LOL Good point.

If you want a reasonable facsimile of pankration I would say take up Judo and kickboxing and you would get the general idea of what pankration might be like.

Being partialy Greek I did quite a bit of research on the subject and found these things out:
Pankration translates to "all powers"
Pano=Top or up
Kato=down
They used wrestling style takedowns and throws including many Judo type throws we see today. They used strangles, arm locks, foot locks and knee locks. They did Ground and pound and they used punches and kicks.
There is no mention or drawings of any subs from their backs but I have seen vases with paintings that looked like sweeps. In particular I saw one vase where the man on his back was grabbing the ankle of another man "standing up in his guard" even though the "guard" in and of itself was not a common position if they could help it(IMO).

I would say right now pankration is more or less MMA today and open to interpretation of the instructor.

But if you work Judo throws, wrestling takedowns, Kickboxing and sub from the top, pins and sweeps from the bottom you probably would be very much like one of those ancient greek olympians in terms of skill sets.

Fighters today that might have similar skill sets would be any "well rounded" wrestler that has decent sub ability from the top and escapes from the bottom.
Dan Henderson perhaps, since he will shoot and throw, can strike can get to his feet. Maybe Lidell although he doesnt use subs much.
I would say Fedor but I believe Fedor would have better subs off his back than the typical pankration stylist back in the day.

Help me out here if you can think of better fighters that might have similar attributes to ancient greek pankrationists:

Good strikes on the feet, good wrestling takedowns and throws, subs from the top or from rear mount, good escapes from the "guard" postion. Almost no subs from the guard postion or perhaps only the most basic such from the "guard".

 

[knoxpk]

 

[knoxpk]

 

[knoxpk]

I would like to add, IMO there are a couple fo reasons the gaurd position may have been neglected back in the day.
A) Pankration was also the style the greek miliatary used for hand to hand combat on the battlefield. Being trapped on the ground may have been considered a disadvantage when weapons were involved on the battlefield and a knife or dagger could be drawn.
B) see the guy in robes with the stick in the picture?
That was the ref and if he felt you were stalling he litterally would "HIT" you for it.
As we know when 2 guys are equal on the ground it can take some time to pull off a sub or sweep from the guard and therefore if the man on top manages to keep busy he can make the man on bottom look passive which would result in getting beaten by the ref AND your opponent!!!!!

ANY wrestlers out there ever heard the term "hit for stalling"? (the wrestler in red was hit for stalling)

Now you know where the term came from.

 

[isam_134]

thnx for the info. here's another question. So guys who offer this like AMC PAnkration, just offer a hybrid? Another question would be how can I improve on my takedowns?

 

[knoxpk]

thnx for the info. here's another question. So guys who offer this like AMC PAnkration, just offer a hybrid? Another question would be how can I improve on my takedowns?

DAMN I am glad someone replied to my post. That took some time!
lol

ANYHOW yes any version of pankration you see will just be some sort of hybrid. MMA training is pretty much pankration.
Much like any country that goes through a dark age , much information is lost. Greece is no different. Any type of manuscripts and such are gone. All that is left is artwork and some poems and stories with hard to follow descriptions.

Improve takedowns? Easy , take Judo , wrestling or Sambo.

 

[TacWar]

I was reading an article on line, and given how infallible internet sources are (sarcasm) it was still interesting. The article mentioned how Alexander the great was actually an admirer of Pancrase and he took with him to battle units of pancrase fighters, and they would not be part of the phalanx, but would literally engage the enemy in hand to hand combat equipped with light armor, though it didn't mention any weapons so I can't say if they did or did not use swords and shields, but their tactics were simply to actually grapple with the enemy and kill them on the ground.

The claim in the article that really grabbed my attention was that when Alexander invaded the far east he took a lot of these fighters with him, and this is supposedly about the time where other eastern martial arts began to develop, and the claim is that Pancrase actually could have had a hand in the development of those eastern arts early development, again I wish I had the article link so everyone could investigate it on their own, but you just have to take it for what its worth, and that is an internet article.

 

[Cletus]

There is a "Pankration" club in my town, and a friend of mine has trained there for about 5-6 years. I rolled with him about a year ago. he was in side control, but didnt have a knee or hand against my hip, so i regained guard very easily. this happened a number of times (he asked to restart from that position) and evntually he asked me what was going on. I explained, and he said he was never shown this in class (something i would consider the VERY basics)

Anyway it seems that they learn some modified form of catch, regardless of what they call it, and the instructor alligned himself to Matt Furey a wile back (never a good sign)

The instructor actually released a book called Irish Bare Knuckle Boxing, heres a link

http://www.irishbareknuckleboxing.com/

This really does nothing for legit mma in ireland

 

[knoxpk]

The claim in the article that really grabbed my attention was that when Alexander invaded the far east he took a lot of these fighters with him, and this is supposedly about the time where other eastern martial arts began to develop, and the claim is that Pancrase actually could have had a hand in the development of those eastern arts early development, again I wish I had the article link so everyone could investigate it on their own, but you just have to take it for what its worth, and that is an internet article.

A couple of things are taken as facts:
A) Greece had pankration prior to and during Alexanders era.
B) Alexander did occupy India
C) India is given credit for the spread of Asian Martial Arts
the rest is debatable.
I am sure all countries had their own styles of unarmed combat but its not really a stretch to imagine that there is some over lap in there somewhere.

 

[isam_134]

anybody heard anything about matt hume. I heard he was offering it and I heard Barnett once trained there.

 

[TacWar]

Knox, thanks for having some actual truths from that article I read, it seemed interesting but I haven't really had a chance to research it, but do you know if Alexander actually used some version of Pankration units, or would you just say that the troops he used just were all generally trained in some form of Pankrase?

 

[knoxpk]

TAcwar ..I would think it would be very safe to say that the entire greek military would have some sort of pankration training but I too have read where Alexander ntook some actual "fighters" with him.

I guess it would be the same as todays military. Certainly they are all trained in hand to hand combat based on MMA like BJJ and boxing etc.. But that is a far cry from taking the entore UFC and PRIDE heavyweight division along with you as your personal bodyguards.