Old school Vale Tudo training VS MMA

[Levstar]

Hi guys,

I am a big fan of the old school vale tudo fights- no rounds, no time limits and bare knuckle. I know a lot of the old school fights were style v style, BJJ v. Capoeira, kickboxing v wrestling and the infamous BJJ v Luta Livre.

My question is this-

1) How does vale tudo training differ from modern MMA training?

2) Is Vale Tudo grappling/grappling under a vale tudo ruleset different?

3) Are there any techniques that were used in vale tudo that aren't in MMA? Particularly from a grappling perspective ie. headbutts from mount etc?

4) Does no time limits, no point scoring for takedowns etc change how grapplers approach the fight?

 

[Levstar]

edit

 

[Deleted member 429137]

Hi guys,

I am a big fan of the old school vale tudo fights- no rounds, no time limits and bare knuckle. I know a lot of the old school fights were style v style, BJJ v. Capoeira, kickboxing v wrestling and the infamous BJJ v Luta Livre.

My question is this-

1) How does vale tudo training differ from modern MMA training?

2) Is Vale Tudo grappling/grappling under a vale tudo ruleset different?

3) Are there any techniques that were used in vale tudo that aren't in MMA? Particularly from a grappling perspective ie. headbutts from mount etc?

4) Does no time limits, no point scoring for takedowns etc change how grapplers approach the fight?

Striking and takedowns were quite rudimentary. Striking had to be different due to bareknuckles. Headbutts could change everything. Coleman destroyed with headbutts. Not that long ago in Rio Heroes some dude got knocked into tomorrow when someone headbutted him HARD on the button.

I doubt many modern MMA fighters would fight Vale Tudo, let alone a Vale Tudo tournament. It took serious stones.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Hi guys,

I am a big fan of the old school vale tudo fights- no rounds, no time limits and bare knuckle. I know a lot of the old school fights were style v style, BJJ v. Capoeira, kickboxing v wrestling and the infamous BJJ v Luta Livre.

My question is this-

1) How does vale tudo training differ from modern MMA training?

2) Is Vale Tudo grappling/grappling under a vale tudo ruleset different?

3) Are there any techniques that were used in vale tudo that aren't in MMA? Particularly from a grappling perspective ie. headbutts from mount etc?

4) Does no time limits, no point scoring for takedowns etc change how grapplers approach the fight?

1-I think modern MMA is way more scientific, and there is more art specific training, meaning guys will go to or bring the best in each art to train with, rather than learn it all under one coach.

2- yes the grappling and style is different due to the different rule set. But only slightly, grappling is grappling.

3- the rule set dictated the technique., no time limits, no stand ups, head butts, knees on the ground, sicker kicks, no gloves, etc. changes a lot!

4- yes!

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Headbutts could change everything. Coleman destroyed with headbutts. Not that long ago in Rio Heroes some dude got knocked into tomorrow when someone headbutted him HARD on the button.

Ken Shamrock used them to some degree vs Royce in there second fight also. I remember Coleman had an understudy, nicknamed the shark or something, a somoan dude I think who ran thru a tournament by takedown and a hundred small headbutts over and over!

Headbutts are the death of the guard.

 

[Goat Meal]

Headbutts are the death of the guard.

Only a badly played guard.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Only a badly played guard.

Yeah, that sounded a bit "blanket" huh. Headbutts are hell for the closed guard of MMA IMO.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Ken Shamrock used them to some degree vs Royce in there second fight also. I remember Coleman had an understudy, nicknamed the shark or something, a somoan dude I think who ran thru a tournament by takedown and a hundred small headbutts over and over!

Headbutts are the death of the guard.

no they are not.

Headbutts do add some more specific care, but watch old IVC and see how many of them were finished by headbutts, very few.. Hell, Mark kerr couldnt finish fabio gurgel,with headbutts allow even though Fabio was like at least 30 kilos lighter...

Punches are way more dangerous than headbutts.

 

[Goat Meal]

Yeah, that sounded a bit "blanket" huh. Headbutts are hell for the closed guard of MMA IMO.

I play a lot of closed guard and even though I'm not worried or thinking about being head butted in training I don't see how it would be possible for my sparring partner to land a solid head butt.

Shawn Williams Guard - Opponent's head is off of my center line; my forearm is across their neck and their posture is broken by overhooking my own leg over their arm trapping them in place.

Conventional Closed Guard - Legs are high, at least no lower than the middle of my opponent's back; Gabe grip behind the neck.

I imagine everyone plays closed guard about the same way but maybe not.

 

[Marimbondo]

no they are not.

Headbutts do add some more specific care, but watch old IVC and see how many of them were finished by headbutts, very few.. Hell, Mark kerr couldnt finish fabio gurgel,with headbutts allow even though Fabio was like at least 30 kilos lighter...

Punches are way more dangerous than headbutts.

I remember Wanderlei Silva cutting his own eyebrow by headbutting Arthur Mariano in IVC.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

no they are not.

Headbutts do add some more specific care, but watch old IVC and see how many of them were finished by headbutts, very few.. Hell, Mark kerr couldnt finish fabio gurgel,with headbutts allow even though Fabio was like at least 30 kilos lighter...

Punches are way more dangerous than headbutts.

There are many ways to break your hands, while punching.
There is no way you break your head,while head butting.
The density of the bones is quite different as well.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

There are many ways to break your hands, while punching.
There is no way you break your head,while head butting.
The density of the bones is quite different as well.

yeah, so? watch those videos and see if the fighters in there care much about breaking their hands in the fight... punches are BY FAR the most used weapon to ko people, even when soccer kicks, headbutts or ballgrabs are allow.

 

[Marimbondo]

There are many ways to break your hands, while punching.
There is no way you break your head,while head butting.
The density of the bones is quite different as well.

I don't know if you can break your own skull by headbutting someone, but you can certainly expose your skull if you headbutt your adversary the wrong way, Wand learned it the hard way.

starts at 6:00, he still have the scar tissue from the headbutt.



complete fight

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

yeah, so? watch those videos and see if the fighters in there care much about breaking their hands in the fight... punches are BY FAR the most used weapon to ko people, even when soccer kicks, headbutts or ballgrabs are allow.

I do practice sport, where head butts are involved (combat sambo), so I don't need to watch videos to know what it is to go through a tournament with a broken hand.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I don't know if you can break your own skull by headbutting someone, but you can certainly expose your skull if you headbutt your adversary the wrong way, Wand learned it the hard way.

starts at 6:00, he still have the scar tissue from the headbutt.



complete fight

I'm quite sure he cut himself, but there was no fracture.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

no they are not.

Headbutts do add some more specific care, but watch old IVC and see how many of them were finished by headbutts, very few.. Hell, Mark kerr couldnt finish fabio gurgel,with headbutts allow even though Fabio was like at least 30 kilos lighter...

Punches are way more dangerous than headbutts.

I never said they were more dangerous than strikes. And yes Headbutts do add an extra amount of danger for a closed Guard in MMA. To think otherwise is silly at best.

 

[sb413197]

I imagine everyone plays closed guard about the same way but maybe not.

I think that if you can't break their posture then your guard is not "safe" when strikes are involved, whether headbutts are there or not. But headbutts makes it that much worse for sure.

 

[lechien]

I do practice sport, where head butts are involved (combat sambo), so I don't need to watch videos to know what it is to go through a tournament with a broken hand.

For REAL!

 

[Title Fight Productions]

I play a lot of closed guard and even though I'm not worried or thinking about being head butted in training I don't see how it would be possible for my sparring partner to land a solid head butt.

Shawn Williams Guard - Opponent's head is off of my center line; my forearm is across their neck and their posture is broken by overhooking my own leg over their arm trapping them in place.

Conventional Closed Guard - Legs are high, at least no lower than the middle of my opponent's back; Gabe grip behind the neck.

I imagine everyone plays closed guard about the same way but maybe not.

To me it's a matter of numbers. The Headbutt adds another weapon for the top player, especially if the bottom player is playing a closed MMA guard of overhooking and breaking posture, which brings the Headbutt weapon close to the target.

If your overhooking and breaking posture with an arm on the back of the neck, your opponent has a free hand/elbow to strike or cross face to create a little space to then drop a short Headbutt.

Headbutts dont have to have a lot of space to be effective and if they arnt always effective they do add something else for the bottom player to be concerned with defending which in turn can open up other strikes.

Again it's simple numbers.