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Most practical subs for stocky or muscular players

Thaijitsu612

Brown Belt
@Brown
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Basically I love Bjj and I love weightlifting. I'm not huge by any means, I'm about 5'10 and a lean 200. What this means is I'm often significantly shorter then guys in my weight class.

My question is simply what types of submissions/games seem to work best for guys with thicker builds and arms? So far I'm leaning towards armbars the most. Since I plan to start competing regularly I want to dedicate myself to a practical Game plan.

Side note, i like taking the back but I have a hell of a time getting my arms under the neck for a rnc. I mention this because the other threads I've found seem to all mention the rnc but it seems difficult with bigger arms. I don't see many big guys getting the rnc.
 
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Basically I love Bjj and I love weightlifting. I'm not huge by any means, I'm about 5'10 and a lean 200. What this means is I'm often significantly shorter then guys in my weight class.

My question is simply what types of submissions/games seem to work best for guys with thicker builds and arms? So far I'm leaning towards armbars the most. Since I plan to start competing regularly I want to dedicate myself to a practical Game plan.

Side note, i like taking the back but I have a hell of a time getting my arms under the neck for a rnc. I mention this because the other threads I've found seem to all mention the rnc but it seems difficult with bigger arms. I don't see many big guys getting the rnc.

Everything works for you. Triangles, Darces, armbars, omoplatas, RNCs, whatever. You may have to adjust your technique, but nothing will be impossible just because you have big arms.
 
Basically I love Bjj and I love weightlifting. I'm not huge by any means, I'm about 5'10 and a lean 200. What this means is I'm often significantly shorter then guys in my weight class.

My question is simply what types of submissions/games seem to work best for guys with thicker builds and arms? So far I'm leaning towards armbars the most. Since I plan to start competing regularly I want to dedicate myself to a practical Game plan.

Side note, i like taking the back but I have a hell of a time getting my arms under the neck for a rnc. I mention this because the other threads I've found seem to all mention the rnc but it seems difficult with bigger arms. I don't see many big guys getting the rnc.

Right, first thing I'll suggest is to spend some free time chasing down that old Jiu Jitsu rabbit hole on YT. Find a short list of moves you like, or that you think may work in your game based on position/attributes/whatever. Position is probably the best point to start from, think of the positions you feel most comfortable in and spend the most time in during a roll. Then factor in attributes second, as you will often find variations on subs which will work better for different body types or utilize slightly different attributes - therefore there is probably a version of the sub you like that will work for ye.

Go to an open mat, or ask one of your training buddies to come early/stay late at class so you can go over your short list. Get a feel, from static drilling, whether or not the move feels mechanically sound for yourself at this point in time and in your game - I say this last part because something may not be the right fit for you now, but in a couple years you might come back to it and find it's just what you need. Nothing's nailed down or concrete in that sense, I think (just my opinion though). So get a feel for the moves on your short list. Which ones feel like they click and work for your build.

Now start attacking them while rolling, develop setups, baits, build a bit of a game around them. Watch some big name's 4 hour video series on that particular sub and learn everything you can about it. Spam it during rolling until your buddies know that it's all you'll go for, so they start learning good defenses to it and shut it down every time you go for it. Get better at it, beat their defense. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Second is tied into parts of the first, but short and simple; concept, physiology and "henka". Do as much as humanly possible to truly understand the subs on your shortlist, what are the principles and concepts by which they are applied to the body? What aspects of physiology are involved in making that sub work? When you understand the first two, even a little bit (I only understand a little bit of any of them myself - I've only been training about 3 years so I'm still very basic) then you can apply the concept of "henka" (it's just a Japanese term referring to open variations of techniques) when rolling or competing. The move may not be lining up textbook for ye, but if you understand the concept and physiology involved you are able to use "henka" on the fly, and still get the tap. Helps in competition and it's harder to defend against a lot of the time as it's somewhat unorthodox.

Lastly, I'm 245lbs or so and have no trouble with the RNC. I used to, back when I'd reach for my bicep or shoulder, what I found works for me is to slide the choking arm into place, and then slide the second arm into place, back of my hand to his head, and slide it in until the bicep lands under my other hand - then squeeze. Alternatively you may find the palm-to-palm choke from there works better for you. I think some people call it the Severn Choke IIRC..? I could be wrong on that.

And there's always sliding lapel choke, bow and arrow, Ezekiel from the back, lapel half-Nelson choke, and a myriad of others if you're in the gi.

All the best with your training.
 
Just squeeze their head. Like really...really.. hard. It works. I promise.
 
As far as leg locks, I love them and did Sambo for a couple years. But now I'm at a bjj gym and going to be doing tournaments where I won't be able to make full use of them due to rule set.

Right, first thing I'll suggest is to spend some free time chasing down that old Jiu Jitsu rabbit hole on YT. Find a short list of moves you like, or that you think may work in your game based on position/attributes/whatever. Position is probably the best point to start from, think of the positions you feel most comfortable in and spend the most time in during a roll. Then factor in attributes second, as you will often find variations on subs which will work better for different body types or utilize slightly different attributes - therefore there is probably a version of the sub you like that will work for ye.

Go to an open mat, or ask one of your training buddies to come early/stay late at class so you can go over your short list. Get a feel, from static drilling, whether or not the move feels mechanically sound for yourself at this point in time and in your game - I say this last part because something may not be the right fit for you now, but in a couple years you might come back to it and find it's just what you need. Nothing's nailed down or concrete in that sense, I think (just my opinion though). So get a feel for the moves on your short list. Which ones feel like they click and work for your build.

Now start attacking them while rolling, develop setups, baits, build a bit of a game around them. Watch some big name's 4 hour video series on that particular sub and learn everything you can about it. Spam it during rolling until your buddies know that it's all you'll go for, so they start learning good defenses to it and shut it down every time you go for it. Get better at it, beat their defense. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Second is tied into parts of the first, but short and simple; concept, physiology and "henka". Do as much as humanly possible to truly understand the subs on your shortlist, what are the principles and concepts by which they are applied to the body? What aspects of physiology are involved in making that sub work? When you understand the first two, even a little bit (I only understand a little bit of any of them myself - I've only been training about 3 years so I'm still very basic) then you can apply the concept of "henka" (it's just a Japanese term referring to open variations of techniques) when rolling or competing. The move may not be lining up textbook for ye, but if you understand the concept and physiology involved you are able to use "henka" on the fly, and still get the tap. Helps in competition and it's harder to defend against a lot of the time as it's somewhat unorthodox.

Lastly, I'm 245lbs or so and have no trouble with the RNC. I used to, back when I'd reach for my bicep or shoulder, what I found works for me is to slide the choking arm into place, and then slide the second arm into place, back of my hand to his head, and slide it in until the bicep lands under my other hand - then squeeze. Alternatively you may find the palm-to-palm choke from there works better for you. I think some people call it the Severn Choke IIRC..? I could be wrong on that.

And there's always sliding lapel choke, bow and arrow, Ezekiel from the back, lapel half-Nelson choke, and a myriad of others if you're in the gi.

All the best with your training.

Thanks for the suggestions. It makes since to study the concepts but I guess I haven't really approached any submissions that way besides leg locks.

I'm sure my problem with rnc is technical deficiency but I just can't ever get it.
 
As far as leg locks, I love them and did Sambo for a couple years. But now I'm at a bjj gym and going to be doing tournaments where I won't be able to make full use of them due to rule set.



Thanks for the suggestions. It makes since to study the concepts but I guess I haven't really approached any submissions that way besides leg locks.

I'm sure my problem with rnc is technical deficiency but I just can't ever get it.

You have in front of you, on your screen, a vast and massive resource for grappling information here in f12 - I know I have benefited greatly from it over the years. I have an idea:

Can you please break the RNC technique down into steps, and explain a little more about which step things start going wrong, and what specifically is not working? I'm sure that way you can get a lot of advice from everyone here that ought to help a bunch.
 
You have in front of you, on your screen, a vast and massive resource for grappling information here in f12 - I know I have benefited greatly from it over the years. I have an idea:

Can you please break the RNC technique down into steps, and explain a little more about which step things start going wrong, and what specifically is not working? I'm sure that way you can get a lot of advice from everyone here that ought to help a bunch.
A lot of the time I can work my hand under their chin and try to finger walk across until the crook of my elbow is under their chin. That's when I usually encounter the problem, they always seem to be able to dig their chin back in and I don't want to crush my partners face.

I try to concentrate on keeping it tight throughout but it seems I'm always leaving a gap or something as I try to lock the grip up.
 
Oh, so it's just trouble dealing with someone defending by tucking in their chin? Other than that you can get it on OK? No problem putting it on while drilling?

Some thing I do that seems to work at my basic level for dealing with the chin tucking in are, if they get their chin tucked in underneath my arm so it's now across their face/mouth I will use what was the choking arm to wrench/tilt their head back and quickly slip the opposite arm in as the choking arm, then lock it up and choke.

Hopefully there should be some really good advice coming in shortly from some of the higher belts on here, too.
 
they always seem to be able to dig their chin back in and I don't want to crush my partners face.


Chintuck is not a substitute for active defense, and as a good teammate it is your sworn and solemn duty to impress this fact upon them, by impressing it upon their face.
 
Oh, so it's just trouble dealing with someone defending by tucking in their chin? Other than that you can get it on OK? No problem putting it on while drilling?

Some thing I do that seems to work at my basic level for dealing with the chin tucking in are, if they get their chin tucked in underneath my arm so it's now across their face/mouth I will use what was the choking arm to wrench/tilt their head back and quickly slip the opposite arm in as the choking arm, then lock it up and choke.

Hopefully there should be some really good advice coming in shortly from some of the higher belts on here, too.
That's how Rickson shows it.
Also some of it is patients
Watch Chelsea fight from last weekend. Bro thay guys chin was tucked in for sure. However the arteries on the side are still exposed. If you figure out the squeeze the chin can be tucked and you lock it up. Chest forward shoulders back and apply 50 percent pressure, 51, 52, 53 etc etc. Never getting tired, never readjusting, and squeezing more and more. By the time you get to 80 percent he taps or naps.

Really man all moves work for you. If you have good explosive movement go top game and on the pass shoot for armbans. Good core focus on your mount game and transition from submission to submission.

Being in good shape is just bonus
 
My first question to you is what position are you most comfortable with? Im also a stocky type build guy and with previous wrestling experience u like getting mount, side control , or top half guard and I love key locks and kimuras. I'm not that experienced at bjj tho. But that what works for me. I heard some people call these strong guy moves
 
My first question to you is what position are you most comfortable with? Im also a stocky type build guy and with previous wrestling experience u like getting mount, side control , or top half guard and I love key locks and kimuras. I'm not that experienced at bjj tho. But that what works for me. I heard some people call these strong guy moves
I prefer mount the most, but will pounce on the back if it's available . I rarely attempt subs from side control unless in transition.

I most go for cross collar if wearing a gi, or arm triangle and armbars. I haven't tried an arm triangle on many real big guys yet to see if it's much more difficult.
 
From bottom closed guard, I feel like stocky guards are well built for the Overhook Guard > Overhook Straight Arm Lock > Omoplata combination.

I'm taller, and I get the omoplata a lot from there, but I find getting the straight arm just about impossible.
 
I'm a very similar build to you and I hit tons of keylocks/kimuras/darces.
 
"Sex Panther". AKA side control key lock.

It works every time some of the time.
 
I prefer mount the most, but will pounce on the back if it's available . I rarely attempt subs from side control unless in transition.

I most go for cross collar if wearing a gi, or arm triangle and armbars. I haven't tried an arm triangle on many real big guys yet to see if it's much more difficult.

Yeah I rarely do any gi whatsoever but that's what I went for in gi also and some side control gi chokes .. No gi . Keylocks, kimuras, arm triangle I can only get on much smaller opponents for some reason, and kneebars. I m a similar type to you tho, very slightly taller and heavier. Also love lifting weights. The weight room has way better scenery then my training Club lol
 
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