Most important concept in wrestling and takedowns - ANGLES

[EatMyShorts]

First off with some traditional demo videos of some techniques.





The general concept of applying angles to succesfully perform and finish takedowns, has been so consistently overlook at every club I've ever been to (wrestling and grappling) that I'm basically making a thread looking at techniques in perspective of the angle used to finish it.

 

[Kforcer]

Angles are important--but also, chaining takedown attempts together is hugely important, equally so IMO. This goes for any sort of standing grappling attack. Sometimes, a lot of the time, I would be set on hitting the attacks which I had practiced the most and which I took the most pride in. But a successful standing grappling game necessitates the humility to accept the failure of an attack in order to make that failed attack a set-up for the next one. That's part of the greatness of John Smith--his low single, whether or not his initial attack scored, set him up for further attacks.

BTW, love Kolat's channel.

 

[EatMyShorts]

Agree, love his concise videos



This channel is also awesome.

This takedown shows the throw angle - lift, then twist.
Simply a concept that I had to figure out and no club actively demonstrated that twist angle being necessary - ultimately what makes the throw effective.

The setup itself in this vid, the dude doesn't get angle, just finds himself ideally setup for the throw cause he kind of lures/baits his opponent into position - but it obviously shows the angle being used in the throw itself.

 

[EatMyShorts]

I've been paying attention to this more and more and, when an opponent mounts resistance, it's consistently the means to position for a takedown, and finish a takedown.

Position oneself at an angle to their centerline,

And perform the takedown at an angle (lift + twist).





Even the thumbnail for that vid, one can see Khabib is at a clear angle to his opponents centerline, and he is taking him down at an angle (not directly back, or directly forward - twisting/angular momentum).

Thinking about the low single also.



Gets in on the leg, then does not drive directly forward - immediately leverages his opponent at 90 degrees to his opponents centreline.

i.e. finishes at the angle.

 

[judoka loca]

Both of these takedowns heavily focus on angles. Not coincidentally, they are also some of the easiest. lowest effort, and highest percentage takedowns in wrestling. Slide-bys especially are golden.

 

[tekkenfan]

Agree, love his concise videos



This channel is also awesome.

This takedown shows the throw angle - lift, then twist.
Simply a concept that I had to figure out and no club actively demonstrated that twist angle being necessary - ultimately what makes the throw effective.

The setup itself in this vid, the dude doesn't get angle, just finds himself ideally setup for the throw cause he kind of lures/baits his opponent into position - but it obviously shows the angle being used in the throw itself.

i wana learn the over under suplex sadly very hard t learn without a partner lol

 

[EatMyShorts]

Lateral drop - it's an all angle throw.

Baits him to one side, switches the angle to the complete other side of his opponents center line, then twists.

Trying to do this with both centerlines facing each other (as I did for many years) = bogus throw.

 

[EatMyShorts]

Both of these takedowns heavily focus on angles. Not coincidentally, they are also some of the easiest. lowest effort, and highest percentage takedowns in wrestling. Slide-bys especially are golden.

I love this one cause, even for ankle pick you'd imagine it should work going in straight lines but nuh.

Another I tried forever without using an angle; straight on might get it 1 out of 50 attempts (on a rookie).

 

[EatMyShorts]

Side headlock

Self explanatory - headlock them to the side.

Couldn't find yotube vids but, basically a headlock where you push opponent at exactly 90 degrees to their centerline.
Very effective.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I fundamentally disagree with this thread.

In grappling, the angles are not created out of thin air. You must dominate the grip fight first, which will then allow you to obtain the dominant angle.

Understanding that you need to create a dominant angle is about as useful as telling someone on top they need to pass the legs of the bottom player. Without a how, the information is useless.

 

[rmongler]

I fundamentally disagree with this thread.

In grappling, the angles are not created out of thin air. You must dominate the grip fight first, which will then allow you to obtain the dominant angle.

Understanding that you need to create a dominant angle is about as useful as telling someone on top they need to pass the legs of the bottom player. Without a how, the information is useless.

If you don't know something is valuable, in the first place, then you're not going for it even when you have the opportunity to do so.

One might quibble over the primacy different things may have relative to another, but that is a different sort of conversation.

 

[weirdflex]

I thought this thread was going to be about entry angles.

In terms of angles for pushing, pulling, dragging, sweeping, throwing, turning and pinning opponents.

This stuff is covered in every drilling of every move in every wrestling room worldwide surely? Even the very rudimentary one I have attended.

The basics of moving opponent and getting them off balance, for the simplest of takedowns like pushing an opponent sideways and knee picking or dragging an opponent from collar tie in a circle to get them onto mat. This stuff critically depends on a feel and understanding of where your opponents bodyweight is leaning and how to use it against them.
It is so fundamental that it does not need to be consciously instructed because the moves simply will not work without doing it.

Entry angles however seems to be something very lacking in most wrestling instruction that I have seen.

This

 

[EatMyShorts]

I fundamentally disagree with this thread.

In grappling, the angles are not created out of thin air. You must dominate the grip fight first, which will then allow you to obtain the dominant angle.

Understanding that you need to create a dominant angle is about as useful as telling someone on top they need to pass the legs of the bottom player. Without a how, the information is useless.

I disagree.

Plenty of folk can claw their way inside and once there, can't finish the takedown worth a damn.

 

[EatMyShorts]

I thought this thread was going to be about entry angles.

In terms of angles for pushing, pulling, dragging, sweeping, throwing, turning and pinning opponents.

This stuff is covered in every drilling of every move in every wrestling room worldwide surely? Even the very rudimentary one I have attended.

The basics of moving opponent and getting them off balance, for the simplest of takedowns like pushing an opponent sideways and knee picking or dragging an opponent from collar tie in a circle to get them onto mat. This stuff critically depends on a feel and understanding of where your opponents bodyweight is leaning and how to use it against them.
It is so fundamental that it does not need to be consciously instructed because the moves simply will not work without doing it.

Entry angles however seems to be something very lacking in most wrestling instruction that I have seen.

This

Entries are created more so from ties.

Yes, you're right - the angle is fundamental to every takedown, which is why I find myself baffled that that most fundamental concept has never been 'splained to me, ever.

Saying it's "so fundamental it doesn't need to be taught" is probably denial more than anything.

Way I see it, once you understand angles as the core concept, you can basically make up your own takedowns without having to go through endless repetitive drills on each one - improvise better in the moment etc.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Lateral drop - it's an all angle throw.

Baits him to one side, switches the angle to the complete other side of his opponents center line, then twists.

Trying to do this with both centerlines facing each other (as I did for many years) = bogus throw.

I agree but folks are talking around semantics itt. IMO what you're getting at is best summarized by something I heard in 1992 from of all people, an Aikido instructor. He said any standing opponent has two contact points with the ground - his feet. No matter how he's standing, his center of gravity is the point on the ground (under his hips) between his two feet. The mechanics of any TD are to push, pull or manipulate his body away from that centerline before he recomposes his feet to support the new center of gravity.

This applies to literally any TD or throw I've ever performed or seen performed. It's like a camera tripod and you take out one leg. It's going to fall one of two ways but is strong if you push it toward either leg. If you try a lateral drop facing each other directly, it's a terrible angle because both tori and uke are weak (and strong) in the same plane. I did double legs incorrectly (with shit completion %) for years by trying to take uke straight backwards. You have to cut the corner + knee tap to take out that support.

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

I agree but folks are talking around semantics itt. IMO what you're getting at is best summarized by something I heard in 1992 from of all people, an Aikido instructor. He said any standing opponent has two contact points with the ground - his feet. No matter how he's standing, his center of gravity is the point on the ground (under his hips) between his two feet. The mechanics of any TD are to push, pull or manipulate his body away from that centerline before he recomposes his feet to support the new center of gravity.

Every judo coach I have had has said the same thing. I thought this was common knowledge.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Every judo coach I have had has said the same thing. I thought this was common knowledge.

Maybe my Judo coaches sucked but none of them ever explained it to me that concisely. fwiw the Aikido guy was aiki-jiujitsu and cross-trained Judo, wrestling and BJJ.