MCMAP/Army Combatives vs. BJJ

[TheGreenMachine]

Ok, so I'm in the Marine Corps and was wondering what would be the equivalent of the belts in MCMAP and the Army Combative system compared to BJJ for anyone that's ever had experience with any of them?

I would say that within MCMAP, white to green would be somewhere within the white belt system plus stripes, while brown/black would be close to a high white/low blue belt. The highest I ever grappled with was a green and I transitioned to every dominant position on him all day and I was a white belt at the time.

Never had any experience with the Army Combatives system before, but from the vids I have seen, it looks 10x better than MCMAP and a lot more technical and similar to BJJ. So how would someone with 6 months or a year of Army Combatives be rated in the BJJ belt system (don't think Combatives has belts)? I'm talking no prior experience in BJJ or wrestling either.


Secondly, I'm asking because I would like to know how a BJJ guy or myself would fare against say a blackbelt in MCMAP/equivalent Army Combatives practioner on the ground because I've never actually seen them roll before in real life (besides youtube), but always heard stories about them being badasses. I always used to think they were badass myself until I got into MMA/BJJ at an actual school and figured out that they maybe a little overhyped. I'll be going to Afganistan in a couple of months and was hoping they maybe good rolling partners since I won't be able to get quality BJJ training for a year.


I'm talking strickly on the ground too, no standup.

 

[HardEight]

So how would someone with 6 months or a year of Army Combatives be rated in the BJJ belt system (don't think Combatives has belts)? I'm talking no prior experience in BJJ or wrestling either.

My guess would be maybe a blue belt.

 

[lechien]

My guess would be maybe a blue belt.

No way.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I trained at a bjj gym that was always full of new active duty guys who were involved with the MCMAP and AC systems.

The long term (blue belt) military guys frequently referenced destroying those involved only with the programs--as they should, considering they are comparing athletic guys who are training a fully developed groundfighting system against athletic guys who are getting bits and pieces of training as a means of teambuilding and potentially as a cutting score issue.

I never saw a new grappler who had experience in MCMAP pull off anything of success against a like individual who was a bjj blue or above.

Keep in mind, there are tons of great grapplers in the USMC, who participate in MCMAP. They just happen to be BJJ and Judo guys.

One of the best bjj guys I've rolled with was a purple belt/judoka out of Relson, maybe stationed in Kaneohe? I am training at a gym right now with a squad leader of my friends from Iraq. Just a couple examples of many that I've had with military who train--there is enough overlap that you'll have a good shot at good training partners.

Bottom line IMO, you will be exposed to other guys who are very good at grappling, and are experienced in bjj/judo/sub grap while you are stationed overseas. I wouldn't worry too much about the weaknesses of MCMAP. You're likely to have access to others who are also have legit training experience.

However, to answer the other concern of TS, I never rolled with anyone above a white belt level, aside from instructors who were actually belted in judo and bjj on top of their military training. Lots of nice guys, determined, good conditioning, but the skill wasn't there.

 

[BSFT]

<---also a jarhead.

at the gray belt course i pretty much ran a clinic on the blackbelt instructor during the "bear pit" i'm a white belt, but with (at the time) about 3 years nogi grappling/8 mma fights. i had a size advantage which he whined about, but i went, "yeah staff sgt, but you're a friggin black belt, why don't you stop me?" then i gave him a nuggie from kesa gatame right before i armbarred him. (he was less than thrilled, but F it, i was a short time Corporal!)

like most things, you'll run into different level instructors of course, and alot of the MCMAP doesn't correlate straight to BJJ as body armor, weapons, etc... provide a greatly different aspect.

 

[BSFT]

Keep in mind, there are tons of great grapplers in the USMC, who participate in MCMAP. They just happen to be BJJ and Judo guys.
...
However, to answer the other concern of TS, I never rolled with anyone above a white belt level, aside from instructors who were actually belted in judo and bjj on top of their military training. Lots of nice guys, determined, good conditioning, but the skill wasn't there.

good post!

right when i was checking out of my unit, some of the new officers were checking in and i was showing them around as i did my sheet. two of the new Majors we were recieving were purples and pretty active grapplers at their old units. actually thought about hanging around for a couple minutes... :icon_chee

 

[TheGreenMachine]

No way.

I would agree on no way for MCMAP, but check out this Army Combatives video. It looks like its pretty close to a complete system, or as complete as a military system will get. Still a head a bit for the ground portion.

Modern Army Combatives

<---also a jarhead.

at the gray belt course i pretty much ran a clinic on the blackbelt instructor during the "bear pit" i'm a white belt, but with (at the time) about 3 years nogi grappling/8 mma fights. i had a size advantage which he whined about, but i went, "yeah staff sgt, but you're a friggin black belt, why don't you stop me?" then i gave him a nuggie from kesa gatame right before i armbarred him. (he was less than thrilled, but F it, i was a short time Corporal!)

like most things, you'll run into different level instructors of course, and alot of the MCMAP doesn't correlate straight to BJJ as body armor, weapons, etc... provide a greatly different aspect.

Thanks and good post, but that's a major advantage you had (8 MMA fights), so I would hope you would have destroyed him lol. I'm sure you would have still destroyed him with just 3 years of grappling though.

 

[Crazy Legs]

Do MCMAP/Arm Combative programs teach you to use the uniform or is it all no gi grips?

 

[lechien]

I would agree on no way for MCMAP, but check out this Army Combatives video. It looks like its pretty close to a complete system, or as complete as a military system will get. Still a head a bit for the ground portion.

Modern Army Combatives

.

I think we just have to wait for Jag as he used to train in combatives and switch to BJJ.

 

[teamcarvalho]

The MCMAP program does not place much emphasis on grappling as much as the Army's program. The individuals that started MCMAP had different backgrounds in martial arts and so they all tried to add something of from their own art into the program.

I have done several Seminars for Marines and unless they had a wrestling background or were training in BJJ on their own time the Marines who only had the MCMAP training were weak in the groundfighing category.

I also have Marines that train with me on a regular bases so I hear from them how they don't care much for the MCMAP program either. However as a former Marine I have to say MCMAP is much better than the Line Training program they had when I was in the Corps.

 

[TheGreenMachine]

Do MCMAP/Arm Combative programs teach you to use the uniform or is it all no gi grips?

I think it does. Check the pics on wiki. That's another reason why it is a better system than MCMAP and why I was wondering if a solid Army Combatives practioner could hang with a high white belt or low blue belt. The uniforms basically a Gi.

United States Army Combatives School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The MCMAP program does not place much emphasis on grappling as much as the Army's program. The individuals that started MCMAP had different backgrounds in martial arts and so they all tried to add something of from their own art into the program.

I have done several Seminars for Marines and unless they had a wrestling background or were training in BJJ on their own time the Marines who only had the MCMAP training were weak in the groundfighing category.

I also have Marines that train with me on a regular bases so I hear from them how they don't care much for the MCMAP program either. However as a former Marine I have to say MCMAP is much better than the Line Training program they had when I was in the Corps.

No doubt on everything you said. MCMAP doesn't put much emphasis on grappling, especially at the lower end of the spectrum, but I was wondering about the higher end with the blackbelts with my initial post. I'll be one of the first guys to tell anyone that MCMAP sucks overall too. Its like the Frankenstein of martial arts.

 

[teamcarvalho]

I think it does. Check the pics on wiki. That's another reason why it is a better system than MCMAP and why I was wondering if a solid Army Combatives practioner could hang with a high white belt or low blue belt. The uniforms basically a Gi.

United States Army Combatives School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




No doubt on everything you said. MCMAP doesn't put much emphasis on grappling, especially at the lower end of the spectrum, but I was wondering about the higher end with the black belts with my initial post. I'll be one of the first guys to tell anyone that MCMAP sucks overall too. Its like the Frankenstein of martial arts.

I have rolled with MCMAP instructors and their grappling was not much different than a high level white belt but it is also hard to to say because a lot of these guys were learning BJJ from someone or somehow. Also I don't know if all MCMAP instructors are black belts in the Marine program.

 

[TheGreenMachine]

I have rolled with MCMAP instructors and their grappling was not much different than a high level white belt but it is also hard to to say because a lot of these guys were learning BJJ from someone or somehow. Also I don't know if all MCMAP instructors are black belts in the Marine program.

Instructors can be either Green, Brown, or Black and whatever belt you are, you can only teach those below it and promote below it. There is a Marine in my unit who is actually going to the instructor course, but he will likely come out as a brown because he is only a Cpl and you have to be at least a Sgt (I think you can get a waiver as a Cpl) to be a blackbelt.

 

[footgod]

no Devil Dog
even the black belt instructors course is six weeks
its does not compare man
I got out as a segrant so I know the mcmap program well
I was no where bnear what I am no and I still beat everyone I ever ment up against

 

[TheGreenMachine]

no Devil Dog
even the black belt instructors course is six weeks
its does not compare man
I got out as a segrant so I know the mcmap program well
I was no where bnear what I am no and I still beat everyone I ever ment up against

Cool, thanks for the insight. If you were a brownbelt/blackbelt or instructor, is it true you have to do that chamber thing that they showed on the show Human Weapon? And Semper Fi.

 

[teamcarvalho]

no Devil Dog
even the black belt instructors course is six weeks
its does not compare man
I got out as a segrant so I know the mcmap program well
I was no where bnear what I am no and I still beat everyone I ever ment up against

It is good to have some Devil Dogs on this forum....oorah

 

[ace 227]

I'm looking forward to experiencing MCMAP first hand this summer, lol. I'll have to keep hitting the gym so that I can have my own "I ran show on the instructor story" haha

 

[dataws6]

I can add some insight on this.. Its gonna be long sorry!

MY EXPERIENCE:
Im a level 4 combatives instructor and have done it on and off since 2005.
First thing I will say is I heard rumors the Combatives school house at fort benning is handing out blue belts to the guys who complete level 4 now...(true? idk?)
I started training No Gi for 6 to 8 months 2 times a week while living in Hawaii under Sidney Silva (one of Wanderlie Silvas BJJ Instructors) Without his help to refine what army combatives taught me I would pretty much suck...
I have been doing Gi for about 4 months now and I got promoted 2 stripes after the first month of my second school. (spent 1 month in one school then switched to another.)
Right now I hang with the blue belts and some new purples but I hardly ever submit a purple belt but I can keep up with them as far as positions go. and I got in trouble for submitting them with no gi leg attacks... my bad... The Brown belt kills me repeatidly...
This I credit to my no gi training and the insight offered by the black belt on the moves that are taught in Combatives.

COMBATIVES PROGRAM:
I think its a good foundation at the same time it gives you bad habits IE: we have different grips and keep space and dont pull guard due to the introduction of strikes in the later courses.
My most frustrating part is in combatives we are taught to wait in side control until the enemy tries to mount then we have some good moves that counter their attempt to mount so in BJJ class I have always found myself laying in a good tight side control and the BJJ guy isnt really interested in taking the mount and I have a hard time getting out becuase of all the practice I have done waiting on the attempted mount. Not to mention turtling in a fist fight is not a good idea but Im getting used to it finally.
I also notice a difference when rolling combatives and BJJ. In BJJ almost everyone will pull guard, in combatives both fighters are trained to push forward for the takedown wether it be from the knees or standing (the striking thing again)
so the relaxed state of BJJ is different and combatives is much more aggressive (imagine fighing a bunch of newbs who only use muscle) so the pace is quicker and you get bruised up a bit more.
Now I try to teach combatives with my BJJ experience to make the Soldiers a little bit better and it has helped alot.
Ive trained with a few marines and its not that they suck on the ground its just that thier program starts standing then has a few ground moves later (dont quote me on this its just what I heard Ive never taken any MCMAP), our program starts on the ground then moves into standing and our competitions always start on the ground then move to standing in the finals. So when marines participate they dont do well becuase they dont get to strike and have to get past the grappling first. But someday i would like to see marines against army just to see the outcome with striking but I havent seen it yet.
The army program is designed to quickly and effectivly train 1.2 million Soldiers to be effective in a hand to hand situation against an "untrained fighter" and I think alot of BJJ guys see that the moves are similar and think "sweet I just beat a level 4 combatives instructor and Im just a white belt" but to put it into perspective the army combatives course spends 60 hours of training on the ground grappling then from there its all competion scoring, judging, safety, takedowns, and striking from there on. if the army did what its supposed to and units trained combatives after the level 1 through 4 course the Soldiers should improve and be better at grappling but the program is still spreading and thier are not enough instructors throughout the army yet to have every unit doing it. Not to mention you get a Commander like mine who says "that combatives shit hurts people your not doing that" because some dumb ass level 1 was getting people hurt.

MY OPINION:
those are the facts and in my opinion I 50% believe that a level 3 or 4 is almost the equivilent of a blue belt in knowledge of material and teaching ability but as far as rolling I dont thing think they have put in the time and had the proper instruction on the small things that make the moves work, and also the slight difference between the program and BJJ.
The reason I think this is because I have seen a couple books, you tube blue belt tests and the knowledge of the gracie system since they helped develop ours and its said that what we know is the equivilent of a blue belt in BJJ.

I think I answered most of the questions... If you have anything more specific just ask and Ill give you and answer for the army side of it.

 

[redaxe]

Combatives is cool until they start talking about "equivalent" belts in BJJ. There are no equivalents, they are two different sports/martial arts.

No level of combatives is going to give you the level of detail in guard, guard passing, or escapes, that is required of a BJJ blue belt.

By the same token BJJ doesn't teach striking, and while guard pulling is perfectly acceptable in BJJ it is grossly inappropriate for combatives, which is supposed to be teaching hand-to-hand combat to soldiers.

I am a blue belt in BJJ and I would never say that I am the "equivalent" of a black belt or a level 4 or whatever in Combatives. Why do people try to do the vice versa?

 

[dataws6]

Do MCMAP/Arm Combative programs teach you to use the uniform or is it all no gi grips?

In Combatives we dont teach grabbing the sleeves or pants, but we do alot of chokes with the collar.