Making someone fall by sweeping inside their lead leg with your lead leg?

[alexthem]

Assuming both fighters are in orthodox stance, when is a kick/sweep(with your lead leg) to the inside of the opponents lead leg most effective and most likely to make them lose their balance. Most of the times(apart from once) I try it in muay thai, my opponent loses his balance a bit. From what I gathered it works best when the opponent has most of his weight on his lead leg-but then again it takes alot more force to move that lead leg with a sweep as he has so much weight on it.

Best example I have is from someone's kickboxing promo video I saw- the sweep is at 3:25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeGUyRpTm60

Does anyone here know how you do it properly?

 

[Ryukyu Damashi]

Wait for them to step or if they have a wide stance. Hook their ankle with your foot and pull it. Make sure you step out a little bit first.

 

[Frode Falch]

Check out at 1:16

 

[panamaican]

The sweep in your video was made more effective because the other fighter had a very wide base.

As far as how to do it properly, aim for the ankle with your instep and use a scooping motion to push their foot out and off the ground. But in practice it's a lot harder than that since you have to properly balanced, they have to be on a bad base, etc. Better if you catch them coming in or some other time when they're not thinking about their feet.

 

[SummerStriker]

I think it works best when it is a drag instead of a kick, like you are sliding a hockey puck.

The reason is that you want to try to sneak in some of the motion before they notice, and once their leg is moving it might be too late for them to correct it. If you kick them and cause pain, they will recover their balance as fast as possible for them.

Not that you can't just kick someone's legs out. Just that I think it works the best when you sneak your ankle next to theirs and drag.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Kick them as they step onto their lead leg but their foot hasn't touched the ground yet. That way you take their base out from under them before they have established a strong base.

 

[Jukai]

For me, the goal is to get the weight off the front foot. This is accomplish-able in one of two ways: to attack or feign an attack.
Attacking requires less timing and risk but is hard to do against a good, mobile opponent. You want to attack (while slightly advancing, or threatening to advance) to get their weight on their back leg. A good way to do this (given that you are fighting an orthodox fighter) is to get slightly on the right of your opponent and throw a jab or hook. If your distance is good (far enough away where he can't easily hit you with a left of his own but close enough where he is worried), he will either lean back slightly to get out of the way or readjust to be more forward facing. That is when you take that extra small step and sweep his front foot out.
You can also try to just fire a quick, advancing rear or lead hand attack to get them to lean back, but if you're slow and flat footed like me, your opponent is probably gonna just back away instead of lean.

The other way is to feign an attack and get your opponent to push off his back foot to try and attack you.
In Karate competition, this is a fantastically effective move:

In full contact competitions, it's a lot harder to pull off because people aren't attacking off springs. You have to step slightly with your left and shift your weight to convince your opponent you are committed to an attack (but be far enough out that they have to step to land on you) and then step to the right with your read leg and scoop them on their ass.
And to be honest, might not be very possible. The closest thing I've ever seen to it being successful is Lyoto on BJ Penn: as Penn is attacking, Lyoto very quickly throws his hands forward and makes a very slight step forward. Penn reacts to this by ducking to the right and beginning to wind up his rear hand--- before Penn can even begin to shift his weight, Lyoto has him on his ass.

The difference, of course, is that Lyoto is in southpaw so he scoops from the outside and it is all in one motion--- no step to the right with your rear and bring your lead across. Still, it's the same method--- get the opponent to react so that his weight is off his front foot and sweep them off balance.

One or two more things that no one has said: Aim low. The lower the sweep, the less leverage he has. Think Bendo against Nate: The latter would lazily raise his front foot to check and Bendo occasionally would kick reallly low and it would sweep Nate on his ass.
The instep is a common area people use on their foot to sweep, but you can scoop more effectively if you turn your foot in and hit with the sole (although I've landed without turning my foot back down and hurt my foot like that).

 

[Azam]

For me, the goal is to get the weight off the front foot. This is accomplish-able in one of two ways: to attack or feign an attack.
Attacking requires less timing and risk but is hard to do against a good, mobile opponent. You want to attack (while slightly advancing, or threatening to advance) to get their weight on their back leg. A good way to do this (given that you are fighting an orthodox fighter) is to get slightly on the right of your opponent and throw a jab or hook. If your distance is good (far enough away where he can't easily hit you with a left of his own but close enough where he is worried), he will either lean back slightly to get out of the way or readjust to be more forward facing. That is when you take that extra small step and sweep his front foot out.
You can also try to just fire a quick, advancing rear or lead hand attack to get them to lean back, but if you're slow and flat footed like me, your opponent is probably gonna just back away instead of lean.

The other way is to feign an attack and get your opponent to push off his back foot to try and attack you.
In Karate competition, this is a fantastically effective move:

In full contact competitions, it's a lot harder to pull off because people aren't attacking off springs. You have to step slightly with your left and shift your weight to convince your opponent you are committed to an attack (but be far enough out that they have to step to land on you) and then step to the right with your read leg and scoop them on their ass.

That does look like a very effective move to pull off, but like you said you'd need to have such a great understanding of distance because that is hard to pull off.

And to be honest, might not be very possible. The closest thing I've ever seen to it being successful is Lyoto on BJ Penn: as Penn is attacking, Lyoto very quickly throws his hands forward and makes a very slight step forward. Penn reacts to this by ducking to the right and beginning to wind up his rear hand--- before Penn can even begin to shift his weight, Lyoto has him on his ass.

The difference, of course, is that Lyoto is in southpaw so he scoops from the outside and it is all in one motion--- no step to the right with your rear and bring your lead across. Still, it's the same method--- get the opponent to react so that his weight is off his front foot and sweep them off balance.

I'd note that Lyoto executed that technique with a bit of innovation (unless your a judoka) - he did all you said & he pulled on the lead of BJ in order to aid/complete the kuzushi & also I reckon to take the hand out of the equation as well.


Great post.

 

[a guy]

Several posts have alluded to it but no one else has explicitly said this, so the main goal for making this sweep work is to catch the opponent while his weight is in the process of moving to the front foot. It's the same principal as when you pull a chair out from under someone as they sit down. They're expecting the front foot to be solid and able to support weight (like the chair) and when it moves at the last second their weight has nowhere to go but down. It works best on someone with a wide stance and works best when you catch them right as they're about to plant the weight on the foot. If the weight is already there (they already sat down), the foot will be very solid and hard to sweep. If it isn't fully committed to moving there yet, they'll probably stumble a bit but recover immediately.

A good time to use this is against guys who use lunging jabs where their weight moves forward. You parry the jab as you step to the right and hook their lead ankle with yours (quick! Someone tell Hendricks to stand orthodox and do this to GSP :icon_twis). Also, you can do it against guys who let their weight fall onto their lead leg after throwing a kick. For example, say someone throws a teep and you step back a little, then as they let their weight move forward while that leg comes down you kick their foot out.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Several posts have alluded to it but no one else has explicitly said this, so the main goal for making this sweep work is to catch the opponent while his weight is in the process of moving to the front foot. It's the same principal as when you pull a chair out from under someone as they sit down. They're expecting the front foot to be solid and able to support weight (like the chair) and when it moves at the last second their weight has nowhere to go but down. It works best on someone with a wide stance and works best when you catch them right as they're about to plant the weight on the foot. If the weight is already there (they already sat down), the foot will be very solid and hard to sweep. If it isn't fully committed to moving there yet, they'll probably stumble a bit but recover immediately.

A good time to use this is against guys who use lunging jabs where their weight moves forward. You parry the jab as you step to the right and hook their lead ankle with yours (quick! Someone tell Hendricks to stand orthodox and do this to GSP :icon_twis). Also, you can do it against guys who let their weight fall onto their lead leg after throwing a kick. For example, say someone throws a teep and you step back a little, then as they let their weight move forward while that leg comes down you kick their foot out.

That is what I was trying to say but much less eloquant than you.

 

[aries]

Basically when he moves as much weight onto it as possible this could be when he steps onto it or when he adopts a wide stance.

 

[aries]

Several posts have alluded to it but no one else has explicitly said this, so the main goal for making this sweep work is to catch the opponent while his weight is in the process of moving to the front foot. It's the same principal as when you pull a chair out from under someone as they sit down. They're expecting the front foot to be solid and able to support weight (like the chair) and when it moves at the last second their weight has nowhere to go but down. It works best on someone with a wide stance and works best when you catch them right as they're about to plant the weight on the foot. If the weight is already there (they already sat down), the foot will be very solid and hard to sweep. If it isn't fully committed to moving there yet, they'll probably stumble a bit but recover immediately.

This is spot on. That's how they practice sweeps in judo to get the timing down. You and your partner face each other and skip step a couple of times to one side, then on the third skip as he goes to put his weight on to his front foot you sweep. This way you develop the timing of being able to sweep when your opponent moves weight onto the foot you want to sweep.

 

[Azam]

I feel I should chime in on this: 'Making someone fall by sweeping inside their lead leg with your lead leg' - when their transitioning their weight to the front foot - is a difficult thing to do - 9/10 you won't sweep them but do just enough to put them a bit off balance - the reason for this is because for any sweep to work it needs to arch/follow through enough, either with the instep or arch (foot) - throwing a lead to someone's inside lead - does neither of these things which is required for a successful sweep - (a)there is not much arching/follow through because by the time it reaches the inside lead of an opponent it has already used up much of the arc/follow through getting to the lead - so produces very little follow through.

This is why if you watch the video Jukai posted the karateka moved/shifted to the lead he wanted to sweep - because that is the only way it would work & that in the realistical sense is almost impossible to do consistently.


This is why in Kyokushin Karate we use the rear inside leg kick - because it provides greater arching/follow through with much more force & it is technique that transfers to sweeping much better than the lead.


Also I'm surprised no-one mentioned this - but there's a reason why in Karate or in Judo with de ashi barai (foot sweep) - why the most common application is to sweep from outside to inside (lead to outside lead) & not inside to outside (lead to inside lead) - for precisely the reasons I stated above - sweeping from outside to inside (lead to outside lead) provides much more arching/follow through than it's counterpart - lead to inside lead.

The only time you could consistently sweep someone by throwing your lead to their inside lead is when they attempt to throw any kick above chudan (middle level) - even then you'd have to move off like this / or \ at roughly 45 degrees to put them on their butt.

 

[alexthem]

I feel I should chime in on this: 'Making someone fall by sweeping inside their lead leg with your lead leg' - when their transitioning their weight to the front foot - is a difficult thing to do - 9/10 you won't sweep them but do just enough to put them a bit off balance - the reason for this is because for any sweep to work it needs to arch/follow through enough, either with the instep or arch (foot) - throwing a lead to someone's inside lead - does neither of these things which is required for a successful sweep - (a)there is not much arching/follow through because by the time it reaches the inside lead of an opponent it has already used up much of the arc/follow through getting to the lead - so produces very little follow through.

This is why if you watch the video Jukai posted the karateka moved/shifted to the lead he wanted to sweep - because that is the only way it would work & that in the realistical sense is almost impossible to do consistently.


This is why in Kyokushin Karate we use the rear inside leg kick - because it provides greater arching/follow through with much more force & it is technique that transfers to sweeping much better than the lead.


Also I'm surprised no-one mentioned this - but there's a reason why in Karate or in Judo with de ashi barai (foot sweep) - why the most common application is to sweep from outside to inside (lead to outside lead) & not inside to outside (lead to inside lead) - for precisely the reasons I stated above - sweeping from outside to inside (lead to outside lead) provides much more arching/follow through than it's counterpart - lead to inside lead.

The only time you could consistently sweep someone by throwing your lead to their inside lead is when they attempt to throw any kick above chudan (middle level) - even then you'd have to move off like this / or \ at roughly 45 degrees to put them on their butt.

Hey what do you mean by lead to outside lead?? Ar you referring to the stance the opponent is in?

 

[alexthem]

Thanks to everyone's helpful comments, but I think ''a guy'' really got it in the simplest form. I trained yesterday and I tried sweeping exactly in the manner ''a guy'' described it. There's one problem.

Assuming he is about to take a step in with a jab. I can't slip to the right properly when I'm sweeping at the same time, so instead I tried stepping out to my right avoiding the jab and sliding my lead towards his lead foot with the same momentum I stepped out, and dragging it out. It actually worked quite well a few times leaving the guy quite off balance, but I still feel something isn't right- for one, I don't have the right balance the fire a straight right immediately, I guess that come's with a bit more practice?

 

[a guy]

Thanks to everyone's helpful comments, but I think ''a guy'' really got it in the simplest form. I trained yesterday and I tried sweeping exactly in the manner ''a guy'' described it. There's one problem.

Assuming he is about to take a step in with a jab. I can't slip to the right properly when I'm sweeping at the same time, so instead I tried stepping out to my right avoiding the jab and sliding my lead towards his lead foot with the same momentum I stepped out, and dragging it out. It actually worked quite well a few times leaving the guy quite off balance, but I still feel something isn't right- for one, I don't have the right balance the fire a straight right immediately, I guess that come's with a bit more practice?

Well as Azam said, it's a difficult sweep to make work. If you're timing it enough to really disrupt the opponent's balance then you're off to a very good start. To make the right straight more likely to land, you could try disrupting the balance further, possibly by pulling the head down and forward with your left hand. You probably won't be able to throw the right hand immediately without some practice, but when you throw it the punch should be very hard. Think of the sweeping technique as loading the right hip, then spring off it as you put your lead foot down and transfer your weight onto it while throwing the right hand hard.

 

[Azam]

Hey what do you mean by lead to outside lead?? Ar you referring to the stance the opponent is in?

By lead to outside lead - I'm referring to sweeping someone outside their lead leg using your lead leg - by outside their lead leg I'm referring to the outer thigh of the lead leg - not the inner thigh - in order to take advantage of this - you have to switch stance so you're in opposite stance to your opponent (this is another useful reason why being able to use both stances is important & why most karateka equally train both sides - I also tend to switch whenever it suits my intent).

The reason I say that it is easier this way is because if you're in an opposite stance to your opponent; (a) your lead foot is much closer to his lead foot - this isn't the case if you're both in the same stance, (b) because your lead foot is closer to the opponent, you can generate a greater arc/follow through since your lead foot is closer to his - this is very important in sweeping from a striking perspective, (c) you can incorporate the advantage of having your lead hand free & in a position to grab your opponent's lead hand from the outside - you can do this to aid the kuzushi (breaking balance) - in the gif Jukai posted of Machida - he did this - it's common in Judo & Karate.


Like this:





Also it's a lot easier to sweep someone when they transition their weight to the back foot - especially in this case with your lead - since there's less of a chance that you'll get caught while initiating the sweep - which is possible when your opponent transitions his weight to the front foot & you don't get the timing right - in either case it's advisable to be as close to the lead foot of the opponent as possible (this is why I said it's best to shift yourself to his lead) - because even if he gets most of his weight onto the front foot when transitioning - you can wait to parry whatever he's throwing then sweep him immediately after - since he'll be at a stretch or quite wide & therefore more susceptible to a sweep - the shift to his lead will allow greater follow through or arching as I like to call it.




Notice when Machida uses his lead - he shifts towards the lead leg of his opponent like I suggested - the reason I gave before is why.



Also you might gather something of use from this:

 

[spunkbun**]

[YT]LhnAkuEsUDQ&t=4m30s[/YT]
(after 4m30s, apparently u can't link to the specific time...)

 

[KidYoung]

I did some training on the karate technique described above, you just wait for your opponent to come in, or immediately after your strike, just drag your foot into and through his. Even if it didn't bring him to the mat, it upset his balance (kazushi) and allow openings for a follow up strike.