Losing balance during over under pass

[Smato_rules]

I’m trying to implement the over under pass into my game, and have been taught by my old coach a couple years ago, along with having Bernardo farias no gi pressure passing dvd. My issue I’ve been having is losing balance on my underhook side. Should I post my hand rather than doing an actual hook on the leg? Bernardo doesn’t mention this issue and I haven’t seen anyone address it. Anyone have any advice?

 

[yetanother]

No need to post the arm.
How are you looking balance that way
You must me doing something horribly wrong as I have been doing that pass a lot and can't really omagine getting throw that way.

 

[Smato_rules]

No need to post the arm.
How are you looking balance that way
You must me doing something horribly wrong as I have been doing that pass a lot and can't really omagine getting throw that way.

So I’ve attempted two ways: first is hips lower and my head is closer to the centerline. Other way is the way Bernardo teaches, which is hips very high and all my pressure on my shoulder with my head across the body. Both ways the guy underneath has swept me to the underhook side. It just doesn’t feel strong or stable to me, and I’ve been grappling a long time so I do have a pretty good base, which is why I’m so confused

 

[RemyR]

It sounds like maybe you're not putting as much weight on him as you think are you. If he's able to sweep you to the underhook side either there's a huge size difference or he's getting his hips under you. You should be driving so hard it feels uncomfortable for him, like you're pinning his hips into the mat.

 

[Nnedd]

It sounds like maybe you're not putting as much weight on him as you think are you. If he's able to sweep you to the underhook side either there's a huge size difference or he's getting his hips under you. You should be driving so hard it feels uncomfortable for him, like you're pinning his hips into the mat.

This is the answer I think.

I use the pass a whole lot, and I don't have problems with balance on that side. If you are feeding the over leg between your legs, you should have a natural tilt in that direction. I can see that if you are using what Bernardo calls "over under brother", you might have people who are bigger who can point the knee and steer you away. But on just the standard over under, you should be heavy heavy with the over side shoulder and very based against counter pressure.

Do you walk back first to orient your hips in line with the over leg? You don't always have to do that, but it helps to make sure you have proper control.

 

[Daz2300]

Assuming it's the Bernardo Faria style of Over/Under I suspect your head positioning is wrong. To be stable you need to be looking towards his feet with the back of your head facing him and your head clamped tight to his hip. If your head is towards the middle of their body your base is off, they can stuff your head away and they can tilt you to the underhook side which sounds like your issue. If you're looking at the floor on the other side of his hip you've no shoulder pressure and your underhook elbow is still vulnerable to him chopping down his leg to off balance you.

By keeping up on your toes and looking towards his legs as you work the pass you can apply pressure through your overhook shoulder and the elbow on the underhook side isn't deep enough under his thigh for him to make his leg heavy and drive it to the floor.

 

[Smato_rules]

It sounds like maybe you're not putting as much weight on him as you think are you. If he's able to sweep you to the underhook side either there's a huge size difference or he's getting his hips under you. You should be driving so hard it feels uncomfortable for him, like you're pinning his hips into the mat.

It’s crazy, but I got swept by a beginner teenager haha I’m 230lbs so it makes no sense. That must be it because I can generate a ton of pressure on other passes and in side control, but just don’t feel heavy in this particular one.

This is the answer I think.

I use the pass a whole lot, and I don't have problems with balance on that side. If you are feeding the over leg between your legs, you should have a natural tilt in that direction. I can see that if you are using what Bernardo calls "over under brother", you might have people who are bigger who can point the knee and steer you away. But on just the standard over under, you should be heavy heavy with the over side shoulder and very based against counter pressure.

Do you walk back first to orient your hips in line with the over leg? You don't always have to do that, but it helps to make sure you have proper control.

I walk to the side to get past the knee then walk towards the center which is usually when I get ripped over.

Assuming it's the Bernardo Faria style of Over/Under I suspect your head positioning is wrong. To be stable you need to be looking towards his feet with the back of your head facing him and your head clamped tight to his hip. If your head is towards the middle of their body your base is off, they can stuff your head away and they can tilt you to the underhook side which sounds like your issue. If you're looking at the floor on the other side of his hip you've no shoulder pressure and your underhook elbow is still vulnerable to him chopping down his leg to off balance you.

By keeping up on your toes and looking towards his legs as you work the pass you can apply pressure through your overhook shoulder and the elbow on the underhook side isn't deep enough under his thigh for him to make his leg heavy and drive it to the floor.

This definitely sounds like my issue. I don’t look towards their feet at all, if I remember correctly, I am actually looking almost towards their shoulder. I will give this a try next class for sure.

Thanks everyone for the responses!

 

[Smato_rules]

I ended up mostly correcting this issue until last class. A guy at my gym is 6’5 and has very good hooks. Again he keeps sweeping me to the underhook side. It happens when I try to beat his knee line, before I get past it I get thrown right over my shoulders. I’m so fucking stumped on this.

 

[Daz2300]

I ended up mostly correcting this issue until last class. A guy at my gym is 6’5 and has very good hooks. Again he keeps sweeping me to the underhook side. It happens when I try to beat his knee line, before I get past it I get thrown right over my shoulders. I’m so fucking stumped on this.

Sorry not too sure what you're trying to describe, he's sweeping you with the trapped leg as you try stepping over it or after you've cleared it and are trying to move up his body to finish the pass you're getting swept?

 

[Quebec Nick]

It's all about the extension of the leg in the half guard, you can't commit to the pass when there's still a butterfly hook

You need to grind it until it's straight, making an angle with your knee inward, circling out until the leg is straight

When it's straight you circle in and then you back step/ windshield washer into side control

That pass is all about killing that leg and keeping pressure to keep the hips on the floor

 

[Smato_rules]

Sorry not too sure what you're trying to describe, he's sweeping you with the trapped leg as you try stepping over it or after you've cleared it and are trying to move up his body to finish the pass you're getting swept?

He is sweeping me with the trapped leg when I am circling to beat the knee line. I end up going over my underhook side. It seems like what the guy below is saying, he still has his knee bent, so essentially still has a butterfly hook. Would that be how I am getting swept? I see Bernardo faria grips the overbook leg to stretch it out, I just haven’t seen anyone else do that

It's all about the extension of the leg in the half guard, you can't commit to the pass when there's still a butterfly hook

You need to grind it until it's straight, making an angle with your knee inward, circling out until the leg is straight

When it's straight you circle in and then you back step/ windshield washer into side control

That pass is all about killing that leg and keeping pressure to keep the hips on the floor

got it. That is what I am getting swept with, he still has a butterfly hook, as I am entering straight from seated butterfly guard. Should I use my arm to straighten the leg? I’m just not sure how to go about it other than holding the leg and walking towards their head, which works until this bastard sweeps me

 

[don't ask]

I ended up mostly correcting this issue until last class. A guy at my gym is 6’5 and has very good hooks. Again he keeps sweeping me to the underhook side. It happens when I try to beat his knee line, before I get past it I get thrown right over my shoulders. I’m so fucking stumped on this.

Use your overhook arm to stuff his leg. Combine this with high hips and his leg can no longer function as a hook because it won't even be near you.

Imagine using your hand to stuff his leg down. You can't do that because he'll kimura you, so you have to stuff it with your upper arm.

 

[yetanother]

If you are trying to copy Bernardo keeps in mind that he relies on monstrous strength and doesn't keep good head position.
you need to face away from the guy

 

[EGDM]

Should I use my arm to straighten the leg? I’m just not sure how to go about it other than holding the leg and walking towards their head, which works until this bastard sweeps me

Yes, drive the knee down with your arm (watch out for the kimura). When you can get your hips on top of their knee you can hook the foot with your inside leg and drop your weight on the knee to straighten it forcibly, like Jimmy in the above video. Dogbars optional but preferred. I trap the leg between mine, straighten it out, then walk it back in line with their spine until it and their hips are completely dead, then backstep for the pass. Jimmy didn't really do this and I would obviously never say he's wrong, but I can't get what he does to work for me, they'll tend to reguard if they're squirrely.

I'd have to see you do the technique to really troubleshoot, but it sounds like you're not tripoding enough and you're trying to move into passing position without neutralizing the "under" leg.

 

[Smato_rules]

Use your overhook arm to stuff his leg. Combine this with high hips and his leg can no longer function as a hook because it won't even be near you.

Imagine using your hand to stuff his leg down. You can't do that because he'll kimura you, so you have to stuff it with your upper arm.

I’m gonna try tomorrow to actively stuff the leg more. He and I were testing tripoding high and with my head in the far hip pocket, and oddly enough it made me easier to sweep. It has to be that he has really long legs and I didn’t clear his knee yet.

If you are trying to copy Bernardo keeps in mind that he relies on monstrous strength and doesn't keep good head position.
you need to face away from the guy

I like how he keeps his hips lower, that seems to make more sense to me.

Yes, drive the knee down with your arm (watch out for the kimura). When you can get your hips on top of their knee you can hook the foot with your inside leg and drop your weight on the knee to straighten it forcibly, like Jimmy in the above video. Dogbars optional but preferred. I trap the leg between mine, straighten it out, then walk it back in line with their spine until it and their hips are completely dead, then backstep for the pass. Jimmy didn't really do this and I would obviously never say he's wrong, but I can't get what he does to work for me, they'll tend to reguard if they're squirrely.

I'd have to see you do the technique to really troubleshoot, but it sounds like you're not tripoding enough and you're trying to move into passing position without neutralizing the "under" leg.

That makes sense, dropping down to kill the leg, and I usually also go back to the centerline before back stepping.

I appreciate the responses and will try these tips tomorrow to see what happens. I for sure think my big issue, and why it only happens with one person, is clearing that butterfly hook. It’s easier to do on a normal sized person but his leg is so long I must have been lazy and not killing the hook

 

[don't ask]

I’m gonna try tomorrow to actively stuff the leg more. He and I were testing tripoding high and with my head in the far hip pocket, and oddly enough it made me easier to sweep. It has to be that he has really long legs and I didn’t clear his knee yet.

I'm quite confident this is the problem. That's also why you're supposed to look towards his feet (not his face, as you're doing): it'll let you twist your torso (pointing chest towards his feet) to assist with pushing the leg with your overhook arm.

 

[Smato_rules]

I'm quite confident this is the problem. That's also why you're supposed to look towards his feet (not his face, as you're doing): it'll let you twist your torso (pointing chest towards his feet) to assist with pushing the leg with your overhook arm.

Ohhh that makes a ton of sense. Much appreciated!

 

[Quebec Nick]

got it. That is what I am getting swept with, he still has a butterfly hook, as I am entering straight from seated butterfly guard. Should I use my arm to straighten the leg? I’m just not sure how to go about it other than holding the leg and walking towards their head, which works until this bastard sweeps me

The first problem is entering the pass against butterfly guard, it's so much work, the guy as grips, hooks, you don't have a good scoop grip on the leg and you are most of the time too low to put pressure

I like to get to half guard / headquarters and work on smash pass and kneeslides. With all that movement, a good scoop grip on the leg and some practice you will enter the over underpass a lot deeper straight away and make your life a lot easier.

It's also a great pass right after X guard technical standup sweep and deep half sweep because the leg is already over the shoulder


For the straigthening of the leg with your arm, it works well, but the Kimura threat is real. But I do it a lot without the hand grip, I focus a lot more on the movement and the pressure I put with my knees

The game changer for me was tweeking my knees inward, it's from Bernado Faria's DVD

So if you trap the leg on your left side you will tripod, pinch your knees together and point your knee caps sligthly to the right. Then you start your movement outward to straigthen the leg and you come back to make the back step / windshield wiper easier.

When you get the right angle on that tweek you will put a lot more pressure with your shoulder on the hips, and it helps to unbend the knee, like a side pressure

 

[Daz2300]

The game changer for me was tweeking my knees inward, it's from Bernado Faria's DVD

So if you trap the leg on your left side you will tripod, pinch your knees together and point your knee caps sligthly to the right. Then you start your movement outward to straigthen the leg and you come back to make the back step / windshield wiper easier.

When you get the right angle on that tweek you will put a lot more pressure with your shoulder on the hips, and it helps to unbend the knee, like a side pressure

That turn of your knees also sets up the angle for a really simple and quick kneebar you can constantly catch on people who are determined to try make stepping off their leg hard. As long as your hips are facing sideways and above their knee knee you hip in as you drag their leg to you hard using your top leg to hyperextend it like a floating sideways Dogbar. Once people know you're looking for it they're really going to be less keen on fighting you stepping over their leg.

As you've said if it's a Butterfly hook and you can't straighten their leg @Smato_rules you're really using the wrong tool for the job. In that situation you're more in a spot you should square up and do something like the traditional Over/Under pass with their leg on your shoulder than a Faria-style Over/Under which is for passing Half Guard really.

 

[Smato_rules]

The first problem is entering the pass against butterfly guard, it's so much work, the guy as grips, hooks, you don't have a good scoop grip on the leg and you are most of the time too low to put pressure

I like to get to half guard / headquarters and work on smash pass and kneeslides. With all that movement, a good scoop grip on the leg and some practice you will enter the over underpass a lot deeper straight away and make your life a lot easier.

It's also a great pass right after X guard technical standup sweep and deep half sweep because the leg is already over the shoulder


For the straigthening of the leg with your arm, it works well, but the Kimura threat is real. But I do it a lot without the hand grip, I focus a lot more on the movement and the pressure I put with my knees

The game changer for me was tweeking my knees inward, it's from Bernado Faria's DVD

So if you trap the leg on your left side you will tripod, pinch your knees together and point your knee caps sligthly to the right. Then you start your movement outward to straigthen the leg and you come back to make the back step / windshield wiper easier.

When you get the right angle on that tweek you will put a lot more pressure with your shoulder on the hips, and it helps to unbend the knee, like a side pressure

Great info, thank you! I will try angling when clearing the knee, and definitely will start getting to this from headquarters, which I keep ending up in lately anyways.

That turn of your knees also sets up the angle for a really simple and quick kneebar you can constantly catch on people who are determined to try make stepping off their leg hard. As long as your hips are facing sideways and above their knee knee you hip in as you drag their leg to you hard using your top leg to hyperextend it like a floating sideways Dogbar. Once people know you're looking for it they're really going to be less keen on fighting you stepping over their leg.

As you've said if it's a Butterfly hook and you can't straighten their leg @Smato_rules you're really using the wrong tool for the job. In that situation you're more in a spot you should square up and do something like the traditional Over/Under pass with their leg on your shoulder than a Faria-style Over/Under which is for passing Half Guard really.

Good to know I’m gonna try the kneebar threat out. And that makes sense, Bernardo shows attacking it from butterfly guard but he holds the foot and straightens the leg out, which definitely seems like a kimura opportunity for me. I’m gonna try passing more square or even to the under side