List of all time great heavyweights

Levi_ said:
It kind of depends on whether you are talking about who can actually win in head-to-head, or who was most dominant in their time. Hard to really rank everyone because of stylistic matchups.
1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Holmes (Pre-Spinks he is way underrated)
4. Foreman
5. Frazier (Underrated, beats everyone Marciano beat)
6. Bowe (Yes, this is more on potential if he hadn't wrecked his life, but he did beat up Holyfield 2 out of 3 times, Lennox Lewis-like ability IMO)
7. Louis (200 pounds would have struggled against big strong guys with long reach, most dominant career but not a strong time for HW IMO)
8. Kltitsko
9. Marciano (Retired young and the greats he faced were older; I don't know that at 185 pounds he could have gotten past the taller fighters with longer arms).
10. Tyson/Holyfield/Norton
11. Francis :mad:
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My issue with your take on Louis is he demolished Carnera and Max Baer. There weren't as many big guys but there were enough to show that would not have been an issue.
 
Levi_ said:
He fought some big guys but they weren't comparable skill wise to someone like Lennox Lewis.
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Yes but you can only apply this logic to 2-3 guys in the entire history of boxing(Foreman, Ali, Lewis). Lennox Lewis is the best HW of the past 40 years. Also I think Louis would have beat Lewis.
 
ferrisjso said:
Yes but you can only apply this logic to 2-3 guys in the entire history of boxing(Foreman, Ali, Lewis). Lennox Lewis is the best HW of the past 40 years. Also I think Louis would have beat Lewis.
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Not exactly sure what you are saying here; neither Foreman nor Ali was especially big in their prime. There are numerous big HW fighters that were/are more skilled and athletic than the handful of big guys Louis fought.

What I will say as far as Lewis vs Louis is that Louis never faced anyone in the same ballpark as far as a combination of size, power, and skill, and I don't think Louis would win that from a skinny 200 pounds and lacking outstanding speed. Like Tyson, Louis had an uncanny ability to get the KO with either hand, but I'm not sure that would have helped him against Lewis.
 
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Levi_ said:
It kind of depends on whether you are talking about who can actually win in head-to-head, or who was most dominant in their time. Hard to really rank everyone because of stylistic matchups.
1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Holmes (Pre-Spinks he is way underrated)
4. Foreman
5. Frazier (Underrated, beats everyone Marciano beat)
6. Bowe (Yes, this is more on potential if he hadn't wrecked his life, but he did beat up Holyfield 2 out of 3 times, Lennox Lewis-like ability IMO)
7. Louis (200 pounds would have struggled against big strong guys with long reach, most dominant career but not a strong time for HW IMO)
8. Kltitsko
9. Marciano (Retired young and the greats he faced were older; I don't know that at 185 pounds he could have gotten past the taller fighters with longer arms).
10. Tyson/Holyfield/Norton
11. Francis :mad:
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Agree about the H2H and resume being two completely different lists.
Resume:
Ali
Louis
Foreman
Lewis
Holmes

Head to Head at their all time peak:
Lewis
Tyson/Ali
Holmes
Bowe/Liston
 
ssx said:
Agree about the H2H and resume being two completely different lists.
Resume:
Ali
Louis
Foreman
Lewis
Holmes

Head to Head at their all time peak:
Lewis
Tyson/Ali
Holmes
Bowe/Liston
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Nice addition of Liston. He may be another underappreciated fighter historically.
 
Levi_ said:
Not exactly sure what you are saying here; neither Foreman nor Ali was especially big in their prime. There are far more big guys in the history of boxing (up through today) than 2-3 that are more skilled and athletic than the handful of big guys Louis fought.

What I will say as far as Lewis vs Louis is that Louis never faced anyone in the same ballpark as far as a combination of size, power, and skill, and I don't think Louis would win that from a skinny 200 pounds and lacking outstanding speed. Like Tyson, Louis had an uncanny ability to get the KO with either hand, but I'm not sure that would have helped him against Lewis.
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Those are the only guys I think who could beat Louis a majority of the time. But they were 6 ft 4 and skilled with long reaches so yeah those are the first names that come to my mind when I think of what you are describing. Besides Lewis the bigger guys(bigger than 6 ft 4) don't really have that level of skill including Primo. I do think the Baer bros were in "that ballpark" and got overshadowed by Louis. I generally hold the 30s in higher regard than the 90s and consider it HW boxings 2nd strongest era.
 
ferrisjso said:
Those are the only guys I think who could beat Louis a majority of the time. But they were 6 ft 4 and skilled with long reaches so yeah those are the first names that come to my mind when I think of what you are describing. Besides Lewis the bigger guys(bigger than 6 ft 4) don't really have that level of skill including Primo. I do think the Baer bros were in "that ballpark" and got overshadowed by Louis. I generally hold the 30s in higher regard than the 90s and consider it HW boxings 2nd strongest era.
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Not sure about the theory in an overall comparison, but some experts do say the early fighters tended to be better because they fought much more often- learning and growth as a fighter takes place in a fight that cannot be replicated in training. I'm not sure how big of an impact it had, but it surely is true to a degree. Same thing with Sugar Ray 1.
 
ferrisjso said:
If we take out the Schmeling loss Louis's resume is the closest thing to Jones in boxing. You had a competitive era with several guys passing the belt around and Louis beat them all. Most of those wins weren't even title fights yet Louis still broke the title defense record. And to top it all off the title was paused for 4 years during WW2. Louis finished with 24 title defenses if he'd fought during WW2 he could have over 30 title defenses.

And again those 30 defenses would be leaving out wins over 3 champions(Max Baer, Jack Sharkey and Carnera) and 2 contenders(Pastor and Uzcudin). And then after retiring for 2 years and losing his lineal belt to Ezzard Charles Louis won another 8 fights in a row(mostly good opponents) before Rocky Marciano retired him for good. And to top it all off he retired he was just 37 had missed 6 years and still had almost 40 top 10 wins. So its like having 40 top 10 wins by the age of 31. Which is just fucking insane.
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*25 title defenses.
 
Levi_ said:
Not exactly sure what you are saying here; neither Foreman nor Ali was especially big in their prime. There are numerous big HW fighters that were/are more skilled and athletic than the handful of big guys Louis fought.

What I will say as far as Lewis vs Louis is that Louis never faced anyone in the same ballpark as far as a combination of size, power, and skill, and I don't think Louis would win that from a skinny 200 pounds and lacking outstanding speed. Like Tyson, Louis had an uncanny ability to get the KO with either hand, but I'm not sure that would have helped him against Lewis.
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Louis did have fast hands and was probably the most devastating two fisted puncher in HW history.
 
ferrisjso said:
Theres 1 or 2 I don't count because it wasn't a 15 rounder and the quality of opponent. Judgment call. You're in your rights to call those fights defences.
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His first win over Walcott was questionable so there's that.
 
LangfordBarrow said:
His first win over Walcott was questionable so there's that.
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I don't think thats one. Its an opponent you wouldn't remember off the top of your head. It was Johnny Davis in a 4 round fight. Roper fight was 10 not sure if I counted that.
 
ferrisjso said:
I don't think thats one. Its an opponent you wouldn't remember off the top of your head. It was Johnny Davis in a 4 round fight. Roper fight was 10 not sure if I counted that.
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Well we're all entitled to our opinions but he won those fights in the 1st so the round limit is kind of moot. Does he get extra credit for having a fight scheduled to 20 rounds?
 
LangfordBarrow said:
Well we're all entitled to our opinions but he won those fights in the 1st so the round limit is kind of moot. Does he get extra credit for having a fight scheduled to 20 rounds?
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Well the point is the round count is indicative of how serious the opponent and fight was taken beforehand.


20 was the normal championship round count it was phased out in the 1930s in favor of 15 rounds. But some areas still used the 20. Its like the switch from 15 to 12.
 
ferrisjso said:
Well the point is the round count is indicative of how serious the opponent and fight was taken beforehand.


20 was the normal championship round count it was phased out in the 1930s in favor of 15 rounds. But some areas still used the 20. Its like the switch from 15 to 12.
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He did have the "Bum of the Month Club" because he fought so often. I'd take that into account considering his quality of opposition instead of his defense count. If it had been Joe KOd in the first round he would have lost the title.
 
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