knife training

[nomilkforsanta]

So my training buddies and my self want to start doing some knife fighting/defense along with mma training. We are thinking of getting some no lies blade (if i we had LOTS money shock knives). anyways, there is no place with a good "school" for this in the area, so we want to get some instructional DVD's to learn some basic ideas and techniques.

The best ones i found are the:

Dog brothers; http://dogbrothers.com/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=118

and

Tony Blauer; S.P.E.A.R. SYSTEM CONTROLLING THE BLADE SEMINAR


Are any of these good, or is there better system out there?

 

[mixicus]

In general, check out the Filipino styles (Kali, Escrima, and Arnis) and Indonesian (Silat). Though there are differences, sometimes substantial, between the various sub-disciplines; most have a heavy blade and stick component.

There are also several quality 'seminar instructors' where you can learn some basics in a 1 or 2 day format. For some specific people checkout "Steve Tarani", "Michael Janich", "Ernie Emerson", and "Tom Sotis". Dan Inosanto, the Dog Brothers, Paul Vunak and many of their instructors are good trainiers as well.

 

[Halls]

Pekiti-Tersia and Sayoc Kali offer the best hands down knife training of any mainstream filipino martial art. Dog Brothers although great incorperates very little knife training in their videos.
For training blades go to edges2.com. Bob carries NOK trainers which are the best in my opinion and also inexpensive.
It's great to see more and more people interested in Kali but I would recommend not using a video to train with. I would encourage you to seek out a Kali instructor because although videos are great for supplemental instruction they cannot give you the fundamentals that a live instructor can give you.

I am very involved in Kali and know many instructors teaching numerous styles of Kali in many different states. If you want I can refer you to schools in your area. Feel free to PM me or post again in this thread and I'll be more than happy to help out.

 

[D Train]

Did anyone see that Escrima episode of Fight Quest? They competed in knife fighting. It was very interesting.

 

[IMAF#1]

Did anyone see that Escrima episode of Fight Quest? They competed in knife fighting. It was very interesting.

I'm pissed that I missed it, and keep on missing the replays. To the TS, I wouldnt recomend doing knife defence training on a dvd. For something as complicated as the knife it is best to learn with a trainer.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Pekiti-Tersia and Sayoc Kali offer the best hands down knife training of any mainstream filipino martial art. Dog Brothers although great incorperates very little knife training in their videos.
For training blades go to edges2.com. Bob carries NOK trainers which are the best in my opinion and also inexpensive.
It's great to see more and more people interested in Kali but I would recommend not using a video to train with. I would encourage you to seek out a Kali instructor because although videos are great for supplemental instruction they cannot give you the fundamentals that a live instructor can give you.

I am very involved in Kali and know many instructors teaching numerous styles of Kali in many different states. If you want I can refer you to schools in your area. Feel free to PM me or post again in this thread and I'll be more than happy to help out.

i don't really want to learn kali, and the triangle footwork/stick/empty hand...i just want to learn knife fighting...The only place in my area is a lame JKD guy with a bruce lee shrine...

 

[Halls]

i don't really want to learn kali, and the triangle footwork/stick/empty hand...i just want to learn knife fighting...The only place in my area is a lame JKD guy with a bruce lee shrine...

Well then just get a couple trainers and flail around with your buddies and you can call it knife fighting.

Kali is the primary system used in any knife training, knife fighting or knife defense. As much as you don't want to learn footwork it is the most important part of any knife sparring. Tuhon Gaje (Pekiti-Tersia) trained footwork for 8 hours a day for 2 years (Pekiti guys correct me if I'm wrong) as a child before picking up a knife or stick.
Also what most people don't realize is that stick, knife and empty hand are all interchangeable. Whatever you can do with a stick you can do with a knife or empty hand.
Lastly, because someone has a tribute to Bruce Lee has no bearing on how profiecient of a teacher he is. Guro Inosanto has many tributes to Bruce. Is he a bad instructor? Is the BJJ instructor with pictures of Helio Gracie on his wall a lame instructor because of them?

Again I encourage you to train with an instructor. Could you learn BJJ or Muay Thai well with only the use of a videotape? Otherwise, there are no tapes on knife sparring, fighting only knife defense.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

So my training buddies and my self want to start doing some knife fighting/defense along with mma training. We are thinking of getting some no lies blade (if i we had LOTS money shock knives). anyways, there is no place with a good "school" for this in the area, so we want to get some instructional DVD's to learn some basic ideas and techniques.

The best ones i found are the:

Dog brothers; http://dogbrothers.com/product_info....roducts_id=118

and

Tony Blauer; S.P.E.A.R. SYSTEM CONTROLLING THE BLADE SEMINAR


Are any of these good, or is there better system out there?

Listen Chum,

No offense to the other guys giving advice, I'm sure they mean well and all but fuck the Kali, fuck the Dogman, and all that other Roundie shit.

Go buy a couple of the training knives listed below:


2 Pack of Applegate Fairbairn Rubber Training Knives, Black, Pair
http://www.amazon.com/Applegate-Fairbairn-Rubber-Training-Knives/dp/B000BYMZ9O

Next go here:
http://shop.fencing.net/category_s/66.htm

Get a couple entry level masks.

Get two fencing gloves.

Start Sparring.

If you or your buddies have any aptitude, you'll quickly notice the obvious, that Jabs beat hooks. Straight attacks beat roundies. Watch any boxing match, and you'll see this. While hooks can arguably do more damage with a fist, the mechanical advantage of the point and blade, makes up for it with a straight thrust. In Boxing the jab annoys and harasses, and sets up power shots. With the blade it kills you and ends the fight right there.

Goto a YMCA or local anyplace that may have a fencing class and enroll yourself. Learn what movement is, the correct hand positions, what a closed line is. Then think about the uses for the back hand to parry. Keep the front hand free to attack always.

Go Spar with your buddies. Play the game of hit without being hit. Practice trying to disarm someone. Learn what a Feint is good for.

Employ basic fencing strategy with the addition of using you back hand to block, and you'll hand the Kali-knife fighters and all the hook-hand roundies guys their asses...

That's it.

 

[Halls]

That's the first time that I've heard of Fencing being an effective tool for knife training.
I've never taken a Fencing class so I wont downgrade it like you have with Kali. What kinds of knife training is done in Fencing? What kinds of disarms are used? Do you incorperate a tip down fighting style?
Through JKD I have trained in Fencing footwork. From my experience Fencing doesn't include angling footwork as Kali does. Does Fencing include angled footwork?Do you think angled footwork is useless?
Do you think Kali knife strikes are limited to hook type movements?

I think you need to educate yourself in Kali before you can judge it.
Lastly, you seem to be confident in your knife sparring ability from Fencing, enough to say that basic fencing strategy will hand Kali knife fighters their asses. I encourage you to seek out a Kali school in your area and test your skills against other students. After that I think you will have a new respect for Kali.

 

[Incognitoone]

I recently started knife training myself. I bought two practice knives from Cold Steel, and the book "Knife Fighting: A Practical Course". I have not read the whole book yet, but I am pleased with the content so far, and the amount of pictures. http://www.amazon.com/Knife-Fighting-Practical-Michael-Janich/dp/0873647408/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199824290&sr=8-1

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

That's the first time that I've heard of Fencing being an effective tool for knife training.
I've never taken a Fencing class so I wont downgrade it like you have with Kali. What kinds of knife training is done in Fencing? What kinds of disarms are used? Do you incorperate a tip down fighting style?
Through JKD I have trained in Fencing footwork. From my experience Fencing doesn't include angling footwork as Kali does. Does Fencing include angled footwork?Do you think angled footwork is useless?
Do you think Kali knife strikes are limited to hook type movements?

I think you need to educate yourself in Kali before you can judge it.
Lastly, you seem to be confident in your knife sparring ability from Fencing, enough to say that basic fencing strategy will hand Kali knife fighters their asses. I encourage you to seek out a Kali school in your area and test your skills against other students. After that I think you will have a new respect for Kali.

Mr. Halls

What kinds of knife training is done in Fencing?

None.

There is a tip, as in epee, there is a blade as in saber. If you know the point, and can recognize the opening for the point you can use the blade with little trouble.

So whereas with an epee you are stuck with only point, and with saber you usually use a slash, with the knife both techniques can come together in very tight and simple moves.

Most fencers are sport fencers and do not see the use for knife fighting necessarily.

What kinds of disarms are used?

None. Its a short sword fight. Stab the other guy through the face. There is no need to disarm. The techniques would be for kill.

Do you incorperate a tip down fighting style?

No.

Nor a tip up.

Just a closed line to use a fencing term.


Through JKD I have trained in Fencing footwork.

I believe you have probably trained what they in JKD term Fencing footwork.

Which is to say modified a bit.

Fencing doesn't include angling footwork as Kali does. Does Fencing include angled footwork?Do you think angled footwork is useless?

Not really.

Yes Kali Does. A little too much I think. They have a hard time closing the distance relative to fenicng.

Not useless.

At some point you must face your opponent. In a rush this happens straight on. If the oponent is constantly angling, he can't close the distance rapidly enough, so there is always time to straighten up to him. Its like being on a rotating turret.


Do you think Kali knife strikes are limited to hook type movements?

I don't know. The time I sparred with some Kali Guys they seemed preoccupied with trying to catch my hand, because I held it out there under their noses.

When they hold the knife point under, like you're gonna stab a pancake with a fork, they can't reach you with it without coming around the long way.

When they hold it point out front, they usually don't use the point so well, and its negated again.



I encourage you to seek out a Kali school in your area and test your skills against other students. After that I think you will have a new respect for Kali.

I did. Around 1993 i think it was.

I had to pay for an hour of Private Lessons, just to get them to spar with me.

http://www.defend.net/classes/instruct.php

After 30 minutes of having Daniel Arola show me how to do Kali Moves, which I was clumsy as fuck at because I found the movements just too conveluted, Tim the owner said, oh you wanted to spar right, you're a fencer right? Daniel will spar with you.

They wouldn't use fencing masks though, said they never trained with them, so we had to cut out face attacks.

Daniel circled and circled, and circled, but couldn't close the distance fast enough to make any of the angles really work.

I just sized him up as middle, low, and high target area. My strategy was to get him thinking in a direction and then hit the open spot. Feints and all that shit.

When he slapped at my hand I'd disengage and stick him in the ribs.

After 20 minutes Tim said, let me try that.

Tim by my estimation is a pretty good Kick boxer, both he and Daniel could have handed my ass to me in all aspects of fighting accept this one [and shooting], because they used techniques that weren't straight forward and simple enough for one, and two they were consumed with getting at my knife hand which I kept holding out if front of them, and that Kali had told them not to do. They were using a style. I was not. I was using economy of movement. They stuck to their guns and were some what predictable.

Halls.

I don't know what technique they had, because they never got to use it. Tim kept whip slapping at my hand, and each time I'd disengage better than the last until he slapped, I went under his hand and sunk my blade deep in his armpit.


Halls if Roundies and angling was the way, then Western fencing would have never came about and everyone would be swinging kendo style. Straight on came as the answer to these older techniques.

This is not a style I'm talking about, but a system of practice, so that the most fluid and straight forward movement may be used to strike the opponent.

Now if you want to disarm and all that, then stick with Kali, it like most styles has all sorts of movements for that, but just as Basic Karate Punching isn't on the same level as training to punch in a boxing gym where they don't just come at you so you can block it, neither is trying to deal with someone using a style, when that someone knows anything about timing, closing the distance, sneaking the distance, and economy of motion is about.

I would encourage you to look into some of the more economical fencing moves to encorporate into your game. you may be pleasantly surprised when next you spar with the Kali bunch.

That's it.

 

[thesizz86]

FENCING!

For a while I was a member of a gym that had a fencing team, and I can tell you that fencing was the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on. You get to whack somebody with a piece of metal and not get yelled at, it's like every five year old boys dream come true.

As far as hand to hand weapons arts go, fencing is like boxing/wrestling/bjj in the sense of having evolved through a rich tradition of full contact competition. I'd expect that the other weapons arts are more like aikido/karate/northern-praying-mantis-drunken-style in the sense of being only hypothetically bad-ass.

That said, you might want to read what this guy has to say about training in knife fighting.

 

[Halls]

At some point you must face your opponent. In a rush this happens straight on. If the oponent is constantly angling, he can't close the distance rapidly enough, so there is always time to straighten up to him. Its like being on a rotating turret.

Angled footwork can be used in 2 different ways: to attack and defend. When a rushing oppnent comes in as in Fencing a simple 45 degree angled step to the off weapon hand side and a curve with the rear leg allows you to avoid this "bum rush" and strike the opponent as they attempt to enter. Much like in boxing where you can angle off and counter strike.
This is where I see Fencing to be inpractical as a knife defense. In Fencing you are limited to a 6 foot wide strip. You are limited to coming straight on rather than using angles. You also plunge into each other where it seems like a kamikazi mission of scoring your point first regardless of being stabbed yourself.

Do you think Kali knife strikes are limited to hook type movements?

I don't know. The time I sparred with some Kali Guys they seemed preoccupied with trying to catch my hand, because I held it out there under their noses.

When they hold the knife point under, like you're gonna stab a pancake with a fork, they can't reach you with it without coming around the long way.

When they hold it point out front, they usually don't use the point so well, and its negated again.

When you say catch your hand do you mean that they were catching as in boxing, catching as in attempting a disarm, or slashing or stabbing you knife hand?

Halls if Roundies and angling was the way, then Western fencing would have never came about and everyone would be swinging kendo style. Straight on came as the answer to these older techniques.

This is not a style I'm talking about, but a system of practice, so that the most fluid and straight forward movement may be used to strike the opponent.

Now if you want to disarm and all that, then stick with Kali, it like most styles has all sorts of movements for that, but just as Basic Karate Punching isn't on the same level as training to punch in a boxing gym where they don't just come at you so you can block it, neither is trying to deal with someone using a style, when that someone knows anything about timing, closing the distance, sneaking the distance, and economy of motion is about.

I would encourage you to look into some of the more economical fencing moves to encorporate into your game. you may be pleasantly surprised when next you spar with the Kali bunch.

That's it.

FYI Kali has influences from many different cultures including Spanish Fencing. Included in Kali weaponry are variations of the Spanish sabre. I believe that the past Eskrimadors elaborated on Fencing included it into their martial art and made it more practical for warfare. Also Kali influenced western Boxing to where it is today. Early 20th century fighters were still fighting with their hands far out in front of them and coming straight at each other. During the Spanish American war soldiers stationed in the Phillipines saw how Filipinos boxed (as a direct relation to their knife fighting) and changed Boxing to where it is today. The main thing Boxing gained from Kali was the use of angling in defense and attacking.

I lke your comment on economy of motion and closing distance. i work on this everyday and train my guys in this as much as possible. IMO Kali's footwork incorperates this very well.
Thanks for your insight to this matter. You have persuaded me to buy Nardi's book "On Fencing" to learn more about Fencing. But I do have to disagree for the time being that Fencing is a practical knife defense.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Well then just get a couple trainers and flail around with your buddies and you can call it knife fighting.

Kali is the primary system used in any knife training, knife fighting or knife defense. As much as you don't want to learn footwork it is the most important part of any knife sparring. Tuhon Gaje (Pekiti-Tersia) trained footwork for 8 hours a day for 2 years (Pekiti guys correct me if I'm wrong) as a child before picking up a knife or stick.
Also what most people don't realize is that stick, knife and empty hand are all interchangeable. Whatever you can do with a stick you can do with a knife or empty hand.
Lastly, because someone has a tribute to Bruce Lee has no bearing on how profiecient of a teacher he is. Guro Inosanto has many tributes to Bruce. Is he a bad instructor? Is the BJJ instructor with pictures of Helio Gracie on his wall a lame instructor because of them?

Again I encourage you to train with an instructor. Could you learn BJJ or Muay Thai well with only the use of a videotape? Otherwise, there are no tapes on knife sparring, fighting only knife defense.

You are right about the learning knife fighting from video tapes.

however,

I think bruce lee is an overrated action star with limited fighting skill. He never tested his skills in a real fight that we can see (i.e. on video); i've read his books and bio's and heard about all his "fights" but they are all hearsay.

I don't respect anybody with a bruce lee "shrine" unless they trained directly under him, for many years. I'm stick if people with bruce lee syndrome....

 

[Halls]

You are right about the learning knife fighting from video tapes.

however,

I think bruce lee is an overrated action star with limited fighting skill. He never tested his skills in a real fight that we can see (i.e. on video); i've read his books and bio's and heard about all his "fights" but they are all hearsay.

I don't respect anybody with a bruce lee "shrine" unless they trained directly under him, for many years. I'm stick if people with bruce lee syndrome....

So what you're saying is beacuse there are no videos of Bruce Lee's fights they never existed. He won the 1958 Hong Kong boxing championship but there is no video so it never happened. Correct?

Is there video of Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo? Is there video of Nai Khanom Tom (Muay Thai)? Is there video of John L Sullivan (Boxing)? What you're saying is because there is no video just spoken word and historical record of these and other fighters that they never fought before.

People with tributes to Bruce are revering what he did to benefit martial arts which was developing his style "using no way as way". Using as many techniques and styles necessary to fit what he deemed as usable for himself in combat. He revolutionized the martial arts by encouraging people to look outside the box and try new styles rather than stick to one style and consider it as the ultimate style. Without his free thinking you wouldn't be training in MMA today. That is why people pay tribute to him not because of the legend or the films.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Angled footwork can be used in 2 different ways: to attack and defend. When a rushing oppnent comes in as in Fencing a simple 45 degree angled step to the off weapon hand side and a curve with the rear leg allows you to avoid this "bum rush" and strike the opponent as they attempt to enter. Much like in boxing where you can angle off and counter strike.
This is where I see Fencing to be inpractical as a knife defense. In Fencing you are limited to a 6 foot wide strip. You are limited to coming straight on rather than using angles. You also plunge into each other where it seems like a kamikazi mission of scoring your point first regardless of being stabbed yourself.

I see what you are saying, however in fencing there is seldom a Bum Rush. You can't bum rush a closed line. You'll just run into the point of the point. Fencers with a good foundation in the movement usually stay in a position to move forward stop move backwards, forwards, more forwards, whatever. Attacking a good one is like being in a vacuum, you get the feeling over never quite reaching them. I experienced this at at Tournamnet once. I got within an inch from this asshole, but never even touched him once, and I caught it from top to toe everytime. It was a a real lesson.

And those guys do angle. They do angle. Just not big swoopy angles like most of Martials arts.

There is some Kamikazi to it sometimes. Its usually a miscal of timing on both guys part. That's why you keep working it to become a better master of the distance. I'm not talking specifically sport fencing because in a tournament you're trying to win a point, and you know its a game, so that shit happens.

I took Fencing from a guy who competed for France back in 1948. There wasn't any fly-casting like moves back then, just straight on, classical stuff, because their teachers were just getting removed from the generation that still dueled each other in Europe. I lost a few matches to fly-cast sport fencers and thought nothing of it, because I nailed right when I hit them.

When you say catch your hand do you mean that they were catching as in boxing, catching as in attempting a disarm, or slashing or stabbing you knife hand?

You tell me.. I wanted them to chase my hand. I had trained for about 3 years by then and was really getting a good arm for epee. Sliipery disengages were my mainstay, so I thought it was great that anyone would try and grab my hand or disarm or catch my knife hand. When they went for it, It put it somewhere else. When they hesitated I stabbed them and jumped back. Its just training for reacting to the moment. Dealing with the distance.

See maybe what you don't notice so much just looking at fencing, and I'm talking people who have done it more that a year and have made some progress with it is that its really about reading the body language, and knowing when someone is in your space, or not and how to get into theirs and strike without them realizing it. A lot of times they good guys will look slow moving at or way from you. its almost like slight of hand. The next thing your way too close, and they got you. And in a lot of those cases you can attack them and they won't even block, they'll just divert a little, and attack right through your attack. You'd have to experience trying to hit a good fencer. Go look for some, (that aren't pussies) and try and con them into a rubber knife match. It would be good for both of you.

I lke your comment on economy of motion and closing distance. i work on this everyday and train my guys in this as much as possible. IMO Kali's footwork incorperates this very well.
Thanks for your insight to this matter. You have persuaded me to buy Nardi's book "On Fencing" to learn more about Fencing. But I do have to disagree for the time being that Fencing is a practical knife defense.

Ever watch the scene from Game of Death where lee has that bamboo stick and he has it out with Dan Inasanto and the two Kali Sticks. All that broken rythum, etc, etc He was fencing in that scene, totally. He was just using the distance, and the tempo, and the movement, to strike and not be hit.

If you're going to get an Aldo Nadi Book, by all means Get "The Living Sword" That one is a hoot. All the stoires of the women he humped, and dealing with the pinheads in Hollywood, and the Duel he actually participated in, and all that. Vastly more entertaining the On Fencing.

That's it.

 

[Halls]

You tell me.. I wanted them to chase my hand. I had trained for about 3 years by then and was really getting a good arm for epee. Sliipery disengages were my mainstay, so I thought it was great that anyone would try and grab my hand or disarm or catch my knife hand. When they went for it, It put it somewhere else. When they hesitated I stabbed them and jumped back. Its just training for reacting to the moment. Dealing with the distance.

If they were attempting to slash your knife hand it is a technique called "defanging the snake". It is usually the first and most basic disarm in Kali. In this case (knife fighting) you are attempting to slash the weapon hand which in many situation would cause the weapon to be dropped or the opponent would be very hesitant to be on the agressive because of damage done to the knife hand. Defanging the Snake can be used in any aspect of Kali. Stick, sword,empty hand,staff etc. can all employ the use of defanging the snake.

If they were trying to get a hold of you knife hand (which I suspect they were) they were attempting a disarm or trying gunting. Too often I see overconfident Kali sparrers try disarms and IMO disarms are only functional when you get in tight to your opponent. Just like in wrestling you can't shoot in when you are too far away or you'll be sprawled on.

Ever watch the scene from Game of Death where lee has that bamboo stick and he has it out with Dan Inasanto and the two Kali Sticks. All that broken rythum, etc, etc He was fencing in that scene, totally. He was just using the distance, and the tempo, and the movement, to strike and not be hit.

I'm not familar with broken rhythm being a Fencing aspect but I'll take your word for it. I was told that JKD's broken rhythm was taken from Boxing and in particular Muhammad Ali's style. But as you see in that film the footwork used in JKD is primarily Boxing and Fencing (which is very alike).

Guro Inosanto has stated in the past that in that scene Bruce uses Kali movements. But I believe that Fencing was also used in this scene because years earlier Bruce had his brother (a champion fencer) teach him Fencing which is why he used Fencing footwork in JKD. As I said in my last post Kali was influenced by Spanish Fencing.
Fencing and Kali have a lot in common. After writing this and having some reflection I'll try it out to improve on my Kali. Thanks for the motivation.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

If they were attempting to slash your knife hand it is a technique called "defanging the snake". It is usually the first and most basic disarm in Kali. In this case (knife fighting) you are attempting to slash the weapon hand which in many situation would cause the weapon to be dropped or the opponent would be very hesitant to be on the agressive because of damage done to the knife hand. Defanging the Snake can be used in any aspect of Kali. Stick, sword,empty hand,staff etc. can all employ the use of defanging the snake.

If they were trying to get a hold of you knife hand (which I suspect they were) they were attempting a disarm or trying gunting. Too often I see overconfident Kali sparrers try disarms and IMO disarms are only functional when you get in tight to your opponent. Just like in wrestling you can't shoot in when you are too far away or you'll be sprawled on.

Daniel The Philipino Guy tried both. We ended up doing circles around each others knife gaurds alot. When he was teaching the Kali stuff to me, he made out like he was left handed, mysteriously when we sparred he turned lefty. He was trying to pull a fast one, I think. He was actually almost, (about a **** hair close) as good as me at moving tight around the opponents hand I thought. I really couldn't get the drop on him there, and we'd cancel out. It probly looked like we were doing twurls around each others hand. This was about the first minute of actual contact, because for like 4 minutes he kept trying to circle round me, so I started cutting off his circle and trying to herd him into the corners of the room. I could tell he was being serious about not wanting to get hit by some goon off the street. After the twerly-wherly stuff didn't get nowhere I started going High and low on him, I'd feint like a jab to the midsection, and retreat really low, catching him behind the knee on the way out. WHen I could see he was looking for that I'd straight jab him, and it would land, cause I had him thinking leg! I remember really screwing with him on the distance thing buy changing the depth that I held my knife at him. I pull it back and move in a little, then I'd move back and stick it out there. With all the other chaos going on he started to forget how close I reall was, so I never had to lunge or anything.

The thing is too, if you're right handed and the other guy is a lefty, it pretty much makes it a your hand against his hand deal. In other words the back hand is farther back from the action out front.

Probly after 5 minutes Daniel was just trying to make a killing shot, cause he was tired of trying to disarm or whatever. On his face it was like, ok fuck this guy I'm gonna get him.

At that point it turned into what looked like more or less a sparring match between to fencers.

Like when you see a Kung Fu guy get in a Street fight. Pretty soon he's just punching and kicking and wrestling. All the extra stuff goes out the window.

We did 20 minutes of this at the end of which he was like fuck, where is this guy going. He started trying to do some of the stuff I was doing. He stopped reacting to the feints. Might have been too tired. He started staying on line more. But he never held his point pointed at me. He held it steak knife style.

Then Tim the owner jumped in and he decided he could slash at my hand and get me that way. His move was like a backhand fly swat flick.

I remember noticing that Tim was really fixated on getting that hand of mine. So he just ket trying that flick. Over and over, and over. Like, "If I just do it better, it'll just work!!"

Everytime he'd do that I'd just pull it back like a fly rod, and put it right back where it was. Then after about 30 seconds and 45 flicks I had his timing, and intead of pulling up and back I just dropped it down, he went over the top, and I pulled it back up and sliced the inside of his wrist. ANd he just kept on. and kept on. My timing got better and better, until I let him flick out, and got right inside and sunk the blade right under his armpit cutting upwards and then slapping the blade upside his neck. The look on his face was pretty neat.

Since I was the dickhead who came there challenging I had to let him say enough. And I was pretty tired.

I don't know what I was thinking, Mousel's is one of the most pragmatic places to train in Houston, because the do Boxing, wrestling, BJJ, muay Thai, Kali etc etc etc; There's no bowing; I figured they'd take it stride and say man, you should come here some and we'll pick up on what your doing and then beat you, and send you on your way, But they were like, Ok your hour of privates are up, Kindly get lost!..

They did ask about the fencing mask. I think after that, they might have started sparring with fencing masks, and rubber applegate knives.

They were just presented with an approach they hadn't seem before, and didn't realize what to do, other than the same ol shit I guess.

They told me I'd have to pay by the hour if I wanted to hang out there, so I said fuck it and left.

I actually started fencing to get more out of the knife class I was going to take from John Perretti the Old Battle cade and UFC match Maker.

That ended up not happening I finally quit fencing and toof to Motocross.

Wouldn't mind going back to Mousel's to take their Boxing class for the fitness workout.

That's it.

 

[XTrainer]

This looks like an intelligent thread. Can't wait to read the whole thing when I have some time, good discussion guys.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

But for the record I'd like to add, that the usefulness of "knife training" other than for the fun maybe a bit overrated.

For one thing, like the guy in the Nononsense self defense article listed in this thread, the vast majorities of altercations with knives in this Country are Murders. Someone gets the drop on someone, and kills them; basically an ambush. No great technique about it just a down and dirty slaughter. There aren't any duels anymore, and they're illegal anyways. Somebody that's going to use a knife on you sure as shit ain't gonna stand there and let you pull yours out, providing you even have one and test his skill against yours. Their gonna ambush you. A one way street.

Secondly there are no more Master knife fighters than there are Master Swordsman in the real sense; the life and death sense. Unless they're on death row. There are some great sport swordsmen, and sport knife guys, but their really just playing.

Knife training whether you want to call it Kali etc etc etc is something you most likely do because its fun. Its play. Sometimes serious play but still just for play.

In sparring with rubber knives you're basically playing the game of hit without being hit. This is a fun game. Its great for honing your timing, working out what distance is, what's close, what's not, what's doable, and what's not, you get to spend time reading body language and seeing all the little nuiances as an attack is about to begin. You can put those skills in your bag of tricks for other Martial Arts games you play. And fuck its fun!

Unless your aim is to join the Navy SEALS or something like that; to become a professional Soldier and goto shit holes where its a warzone and people are being killed You'll likely never really use any of this stuff, (Other than in Play) and that's really nice if you think about it, cause for the most part our Country is a nice safe place. You don't have to carry a knife. I don't.

And last if you wanted to learn a weapon for the sake of saving your neck, in this Country I'd advise a Gun anyways if legally possible.. Gives you more options. A knife is deadly force just as a gun is, but you'll get more mechanical advantage from a gun, than a knife, and that's what its all about - stacking the deck in your favor, not the other guy's.

That's it.