Judo pin escapes?

Sloth

Sloth

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I have seen a number of good resources on Judo groundwork and have learned some cool pinning concepts and subs from judo resources, but I haven't seen much available online or in books/videos on pin escapes. I was wondering if anyone has or knowsof any good online or book/video resources on pin and submission defense and escapes in Judo. Also, I was wondering how these things are taught in various judo academies, if you guys don't mind sharing.

Thanks in advance!
 
Osaekomi by Kashiwazaki covers some nice pin escapes
 
i took up judo to complement my jiujitsu about 3 months ago...and let me say this in newaza randori against some of my senseis (national and international champions, along with ex-olympians) having a great judoka pin you is like having a elephant sit on your chest

having said that, the best way to escape pins is to be done in randori, asking for tips and advice from the judokas pinning you... i guess what i'm trying to say is sorry i couldn't contribute other than to say you'll need to be sparring in person
 
futang17 said:
i took up judo to complement my jiujitsu about 3 months ago...and let me say this in newaza randori against some of my senseis (national and international champions, along with ex-olympians) having a great judoka pin you is like having a elephant sit on your chest

having said that, the best way to escape pins is to be done in randori, asking for tips and advice from the judokas pinning you... i guess what i'm trying to say is sorry i couldn't contribute other than to say you'll need to be sparring in person
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Cool. I agree, having a good judoka parked on you in a pin is really an awful experience. I already train (Bjj and a little bit of judo). I was just curious how Judo instructors in general teach pin escapes and if they differ significantly from the style of pin escapes that I already use.
 
Sloth said:
Cool. I agree, having a good judoka parked on you in a pin is really an awful experience. I already train (Bjj and a little bit of judo). I was just curious how Judo instructors in general teach pin escapes and if they differ significantly from the style of pin escapes that I already use.
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I don't think the Judo pin escapes are really much different from those used in BJJ. The same basic pin breaking rules apply as in BJJ (regain guard, turtle, reverse the guy), so the goals are the same in both sports.

There is a little more focus on pure pinning in Judo since you can win outright with one, but even then plenty of BJJ guys pin at least as much as Judo guys in competition matches to run out the clock. You get ippon after 25 seconds of pinning in Judo, but you can get away with it longer than that usually in BJJ before the ref starts warning you about stalling.

The only major technical difference I ever noticed between Judo and BJJ groundwork was the method of attacking the turtle. Judo tends to do it in a completely different way because taking the back with hooks does not count for anything. But other than that, the techniques I learned were all the same as in BJJ.
 
Being pinned is the single worst experience in grappling for me.

Lotsa guys not only contain, but compress and suffocate you. Very unpleasant. I started working on these again as a means to piss people off in BJJ tourneys. I'll pin for about 15-20secs, until I feel the guy wear down or flip out, then I take nice advantage of the spaz escape.

In terms of escapes, Judo doesn't have some special escapes that BJJ doesn't have. It's all about creating bits of space and angles and using whatchagot.
 
Found one video demonstrating some escapes from kesa gatame, back control and some submissions, which I thought was awesome.

 
The basic headlock escapes taught in the self defense portion of Jiu-Jitsu works pretty good for kesa ketama (spelling?) "scarf hold" type pins.
 
Auspex said:
Being pinned is the single worst experience in grappling for me.

Lotsa guys not only contain, but compress and suffocate you. Very unpleasant. I started working on these again as a means to piss people off in BJJ tourneys. I'll pin for about 15-20secs, until I feel the guy wear down or flip out, then I take nice advantage of the spaz escape.

In terms of escapes, Judo doesn't have some special escapes that BJJ doesn't have. It's all about creating bits of space and angles and using whatchagot.
Click to expand...

Yeah in competition I like to let the guy marinate in my side control for at least a good 20 seconds and exhaust himself trying to escape before I mount him.
 
Estebanantonio said:
Oh, ok isn't it basicaly the scarf hold? if so then those head lock escapes work pretty well. At least in my experience.
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Kesa gatame is the scarfhold. It isn't always called a headlock because it controls both the head/neck and an arm, not just the head. Technically, headlocks are illegal in Judo - you must always control an arm as well as the head when manipulating the head for neck safety reasons. Thus, things like the head scissors are also illegal as well as simple schoolyard headlocks.

The "head lock escapes" taught in gracie jiu-jitsu self-defense may work okay against a beginner's kesa gatame, but they are mostly meant to work against people who are not capable grapplers. A real kesa gatame (or wrestler's head-and-arm pin, which is similar) is difficult to get out of, and they won't make the silly mistake of leaving their head high so you can swing the leg over their face and similar escapes.

If there were simple and easy escapes to kesa gatame and such, professional Judoka would use them and they wouldn't lose matches to pins. As they do lose matches to pins, we know that it takes a bit of work to get out from under a well-held pin.
 
ChainFlow said:
Kesa gatame is the scarfhold. It isn't always called a headlock because it controls both the head/neck and an arm, not just the head. Technically, headlocks are illegal in Judo - you must always control an arm as well as the head when manipulating the head for neck safety reasons. Thus, things like the head scissors are also illegal as well as simple schoolyard headlocks.

The "head lock escapes" taught in gracie jiu-jitsu self-defense may work okay against a beginner's kesa gatame, but they are mostly meant to work against people who are not capable grapplers. A real kesa gatame (or wrestler's head-and-arm pin, which is similar) is difficult to get out of, and they won't make the silly mistake of leaving their head high so you can swing the leg over their face and similar escapes.

If there were simple and easy escapes to kesa gatame and such, professional Judoka would use them and they wouldn't lose matches to pins. As they do lose matches to pins, we know that it takes a bit of work to get out from under a well-held pin.
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All I'm saying is variations of those headlock escapes have worked for me against collegent wrestlers and judoka. Granted I have never rolled with "a world class judoka"
 
ChainFlow said:
Kesa gatame is the scarfhold. It isn't always called a headlock because it controls both the head/neck and an arm, not just the head. Technically, headlocks are illegal in Judo - you must always control an arm as well as the head when manipulating the head for neck safety reasons. Thus, things like the head scissors are also illegal as well as simple schoolyard headlocks.

The "head lock escapes" taught in gracie jiu-jitsu self-defense may work okay against a beginner's kesa gatame, but they are mostly meant to work against people who are not capable grapplers. A real kesa gatame (or wrestler's head-and-arm pin, which is similar) is difficult to get out of, and they won't make the silly mistake of leaving their head high so you can swing the leg over their face and similar escapes.

If there were simple and easy escapes to kesa gatame and such, professional Judoka would use them and they wouldn't lose matches to pins. As they do lose matches to pins, we know that it takes a bit of work to get out from under a well-held pin.
Click to expand...

Your making an assumption, what has worked for me is a taking the back. Basically the way it has worked for me is the wrestler or judoka pulls up on my arm and that puts his arm on that side in position for me to reach around his back and grab it. I use that grip to begin to move around and get a hook in (leg). This technique takes patience sometimes and if it's a judo match and the clock is on then who knows.
 
Estebanantonio said:
Oh, ok isn't it basicaly the scarf hold? if so then those head lock escapes work pretty well. At least in my experience.
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Kesa isnt scarf, its a word that has no translation into western language, if anything it would be "Buddhist monk robe" hold as the Kesa or the Kasya (in Sanskrit) is the robe worn by buddhist monks.

08%20Buddhist%20monk%20in%20saffron%20robe.jpg


And no, if you can escape with headlock escapes then the Kesagatame is horribly performed. But if we come to horribly performed kesagatame there are easier and more effective escapes like a bridge to side control. Even in the judo community i see a lot of bad kesagatame.
 
Estebanantonio said:
Your making an assumption, what has worked for me is a taking the back. Basically the way it has worked for me is the wrestler or judoka pulls up on my arm and that puts his arm on that side in position for me to reach around his back and grab it. I use that grip to begin to move around and get a hook in (leg). This technique takes patience sometimes and if it's a judo match and the clock is on then who knows.
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That technique relies on them sitting there and not "walking" towards your head. I know what you're saying, and it can work in combination with other techniques, but like other escapes it is not something that you can just go for and keep working until you've escaped - you have to combo it with other escape attempts.

Kesa gatame does not rely on the time limit for its effectiveness. It is not a static position: if the guy using it treats it like one, rather than a concept, you will get out. But if he keeps his weight sunk into your floating ribs, keeps walking his legs to keep the near-right-angle, keeps his hips just slightly off the ground, keeps your head elevated a bit, keeps your arm tight, etc - you're going to have a hell of a time getting out.

By the way, as an informational: if you get to the point where you do snag a leg, but he is stopping your attempts to get the rest of the way out and onto his back, you can also use that hook and clamp your arms around him to bridge him up and over (go over your shoulder). Then secure side control or back control of your own, depending on how he reacts.
 
Kesagatame is in my opinion the strongest pin in all of grappling. It is almost impossible to escape from once it's sunk.

There aren't a lot of submission options from the position (there are a few I use, but not as many other positions), which is its main drawback in BJJ. But just for pure control and wearing out the opponent, it is the best pin there is.
 
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