Judo and Self Defense

[SummerStriker]

A lot of combat sports aren't applicable to self defense as prescribed in most places in the united state.

The criteria for self defense is usually that your enemy has both the capability and willingness to cause great bodily harm, that they have the immediate intent to do so and that you can not retreat without putting yourself in greater danger.

Kick boxing fails at this because if someone comes at you and you touch them with the one - two and they stagger back, the traditional and commonly trained technique of following them with a round house kick turns you from a victim defending himself into an aggressor and will put you in civil court, if not prison. You have to let people back up or escape.

BJJ fails at self defense as trained because once you have mounted your opponent, you can't hold them helpless and then apply a finishing maneuver. By taking away their escape route there is virtually no technique that you can apply that isn't a crime. Pins > submissions and even then you have to hope they don't die of a heart attack or fat educed positional respiratory arrest.

How about Judo though? Imagine someone comes at you aggressively and you manage to load them up on your hip. Just a lot of the time when people throw a resisting opponent, the throw is sort of slow, with the off balancing and loading portion of the technique taking a sort of long time. Once the person is in a position to be thrown, the completion is really deliberate. Not always. Sometimes a throw is sudden and violent.

You can however, make it clear to everyone that your opponent is helpless mid throw. People even have time to tap, look around, or yell for help mid technique sometimes. If you complete the throw at that point, what are the legal repercussions? Anyone have any idea?

 

[SummerStriker]

Side note: it is my impression that the most legally safe self defense techniques are powerful single strikes, sudden violent throws, and pins. Pins let you subdue someone you don't want to hurt, and powerful single attacks let you severely damage the person without putting yourself at risk of attacking while your opponent is retreating, because they are immediately down. It is the set-up that puts you in control of the situation preceding the attack that fucks you legally.

 

[Ippwnage]

i am sorry but this whole post is retarded. you are attacked and you defend yourself. not matter what style you use, you can only go as far until the other person is not a reasonable threat.

some lawyer will come on and say something better than me, but the whole logic in this thread is horrible

 

[RJ Green]

depends on the state. a rational jurist might think "well, they were being attacked, but they also know how much to hurt someone."

someone in, say, Florida would be more worried about the skin color, tax bracket, and political affiliation of the parties involved.

 

[SummerStriker]

i am sorry but this whole post is retarded. you are attacked and you defend yourself. not matter what style you use, you can only go as far until the other person is not a reasonable threat.

some lawyer will come on and say something better than me, but the whole logic in this thread is horrible

My point is that you fight how you train and most combat sports train you to press an attack after setting it up with a strike, pain, or dominant position. Once an opponent is placed in an inferior position or is falling back from a strike or pain, you can't press them in real life. You can't beat someone into abject submission.

Kick boxing teaches you to attack with a long range strike after you have driven the person back with other moves and they are retreating. BJJ teaches you to apply a finishing hold after placing an opponent in a position where they can no longer harm you.

Judo has a foggy middle ground. People can become clearly helpless mid throw or during the off-balancing portion of a technique and it can be clear to onlookers that the judoka can make decisions on what to do at that point. It strikes me as a foggy legal area.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

i am sorry but this whole post is retarded. you are attacked and you defend yourself. not matter what style you use, you can only go as far until the other person is not a reasonable threat.

some lawyer will come on and say something better than me, but the whole logic in this thread is horrible

Try working as a LE or bouncer, using boxing. You will end up in some serious legal trouble.
Any submission atempt will be interpreted as life threatening or as an assault.
Throw and pin (on ground/ wall/ car) is prefered from legal perspective.

 

[lechien]

Judo is great for self defense.

It is way harder than BJJ.

 

[snakeybizz]

I don't see how if you were attacked and you seriously injured your opponent or even killed using BJJ that could not be seen as self defence

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I don't see how if you were attacked and you seriously injured your opponent or even killed using BJJ that could not be seen as self defence

You would be very surprised by the public opinion, after an attorney make his speach.

 

[GottaGoPee]

It is so simple it should be obvious: if someone violates your person by attacking you, counter attacking is fair game wherever it winds up finishing. If someone is going to attack me in the first place, for all I know they may be willing to kill me. Should not be held accountable for defending yourself even if they end up mostly dead to dead. Who started it again? Do I know you aren't batshit crazy? But seriously it is severely rude to touch someone without their permission.

 

[Gorbag]

Try working as a LE or bouncer, using boxing. You will end up in some serious legal trouble.
Any submission atempt will be interpreted as life threatening or as an assault.
Throw and pin (on ground/ wall/ car) is prefered from legal perspective.

Modern times I suppose! Back in the days some thirty years ago a judo guy (swim) that worked as a bouncer at the time used to throw violent guests, choke them, and then drag them unconscious out the door before they wake up! But that was then and not now

 

[ithinktheymad]

I nearly did hard time using what I learned in Judo.

 

[deev]

"He shoved into me and I fell over officer, he kinda fell over the top of me, I think he hurt his ribs a bit when he fell"

Thats what I like to say after Harai'ing some shoplifter onto the floor at work...

 

[RTD1]

Not this stupid shit again.

1) You don't fight unless you are attacked and have no opetion to escape.
2) If you are forced to fight, then you do whatever is necessary to ensure your safety, and quite frankly the "legal aspect" of it should be the absolute last thing on your mind, no, scratch that, it should not be on your mind at all.
3) Once the threat is neutralized, you GTFO of there. Don't look back, don't call the police, don't open your mouth about what happened.

It's simple really.

This whole notion of restraining an attacker until the police can come to deal with the situation is just flat out retarded and ignorant of the way that shit goes down in the real world.

 

[RJ Green]

I don't see how if you were attacked and you seriously injured your opponent or even killed using BJJ that could not be seen as self defence

that's because you're a fucking dipshit.

 

[snakeybizz]

that's because you're a fucking dipshit.

Self-defense or self-defence (see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending ones property, or the well-being of another from harm. The use of the right of self-defense as a legal justification for the use of force in times of danger is available in many jurisdictions, but the interpretation varies widely.

go fuck your self

 

[deev]

Not this stupid shit again.

1) You don't fight unless you are attacked and have no opetion to escape.
2) If you are forced to fight, then you do whatever is necessary to ensure your safety, and quite frankly the "legal aspect" of it should be the absolute last thing on your mind, no, scratch that, it should not be on your mind at all.
3) Once the threat is neutralized, you GTFO of there. Don't look back, don't call the police, don't open your mouth about what happened.

It's simple really.

This whole notion of restraining an attacker until the police can come to deal with the situation is just flat out retarded and ignorant of the way that shit goes down in the real world.

unless youre attacked at your work, which happens to store workers all the time. My record is 1.5 hours of holding some arse hole down till the cops got there.

 

[JohnSouth]

My point is that you fight how you train and most combat sports train you to press an attack after setting it up with a strike, pain, or dominant position. Once an opponent is placed in an inferior position or is falling back from a strike or pain, you can't press them in real life. You can't beat someone into abject submission.

Kick boxing teaches you to attack with a long range strike after you have driven the person back with other moves and they are retreating. BJJ teaches you to apply a finishing hold after placing an opponent in a position where they can no longer harm you.

Judo has a foggy middle ground. People can become clearly helpless mid throw or during the off-balancing portion of a technique and it can be clear to onlookers that the judoka can make decisions on what to do at that point. It strikes me as a foggy legal area.

You definitely can do that. Look at it this way...

Did you genuinely have reason to fear for your safety or that of others? If you can be that detached the officer may just think you did not have reason to fear for your safety.

You would never simply let someone go someone who had a weapon or who was much larger than yourself to have another go at it.

Avoiding grievous bodily harm is always a good idea but simply the mere fact that you beat someone pretty good does not mean charges are forthcoming. The only think i'd watch is continuing to attack the guy when he is down or attempting to flee.

BTW if you end up in front of a judge, you lose even if you win.

 

[RTD1]

BTW if you end up in front of a judge, you lose even if you win.

If you end up dead on some cold street because you were more concerned about legal consequences than properly defending yourself, you lose completely.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

If you end up dead on some cold street because you were more concerned about legal consequences than properly defending yourself, you lose completely.

It is surprising how many people believe they will be attacked by unarmed guy, with intentions to kill.
If someone is looking to rob you, he just wants you to be scared and give him your belongings. Then he will be on his way.
If he wants you injured or dead, he will take precautions and ambush you, using element of surprise. He will use anything to his advantage. In most cases, that includes weapons.
If you believe you are practicing anything to help you prevent been shot or stabbed to death from behind, I have a bad news for you.
The majority of cases you could use martial arts, would be while drinking. Then you need to be able to recognize the use of force necessary. I'm speaking from experience, been long time night clubs operator. A good lawyer can shut down entire venue, because the bouncer hit a patron in the face. And that makes the managers extra careful with the security details.
If you try a choke on someone in the club though, you are attempting murder, which gives a green light for some Maglite action and you have to know that the police is usually on the side of the bouncers.
So yeah, the ability to immobilize people, while been able to talk and explain, without threatening gestures, is vital in those scenarios.
In reality, the only chance you would have to work a choke, without any legal actions, would be in Iraq or Afghanistan, but God help you, if you screwed up the procedure and ended up scrambling with someone you were supposed to shoot from 500 meters.