Social Jordan Peterson Savagely Rips Apart New APA Guides on Toxic Mascuilinity

[EndlessCritic]

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jo...vs-science-in-psychologys-war-on-boys-and-men

What kind of families produce violent young men? Fatherless families. The pernicious effect of fatherlessness is exceptionally well-documented. No serious researchers question it. Even the generally damnable sociologists admit it (see, for example, here). Fatherless girls tend toward early sexual experimentation (something in itself linked to antisocial behavior) and, unsurprisingly, higher rates of teenage pregnancy. What might be more surprising, however, is that there is even evidence for earlier pubertyamong girls whose fathers are absent. Fatherless boys are over-represented as alcoholics, addicts, gang-members, prisoners, rapists and murderers.

If it is fatherless boys who are violent, how can it be that masculine socialization produces harm both to mental health and society? The data should indicate precisely the opposite: that boys who are only raised by women are much less violent than boys who have men in their lives and, similarly, that boys who do have fathers are more violent than those who do not.

Checkmate liberals.

 

[n...not crazy]

Yeah, fatherless dudes are generally assholes. It is true.
Fatherless women? Enjoy, but watch yourselves...

 

[Michael Conley]

Uh, that's DOCTOR* Jordan Peterson to you.

[smug]

 

[Seaside]

He makes valid points. It would also be interesting to hear someone mention that toxic masculine behavior is effective for men in the political, business world, and really everything that involves power.

Oh and lets not forget that (looks aside which are obviously very important in sexual attraction especially to women as they are pickier) masculine behavior and traits physically and behaviorally are rewarded by women with sex, and affection.

One could argue that female sexual preferences (eugenics driven and via hypergamous behavior) give rise to male competition and yes ultimately toxic masculine behavior all in the quest for winning the affection of women and being able to have sex with them.

However im not opposed to this because female sexual pickiness has been good for the species evolutionary. And because well every powerful country or power derives from this system. Hierarchy etc.

 

[nac386]

He doesn't really have a point here at all. Traits that are associated with "toxic masculinity" tend to be traits that stem from a lack of understanding of masculinity. If anything, not having a positive male role model (or any male role model) would increase the likelihood a young man not understanding what proper masculinity looks like.

I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because they are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is doing here.

For example, good fathers don't teach their kids that catcalling women in the street makes them more of a man. But kids with no positive male role models may think that it shows machismo. That is where the toxic part comes in.

 

[vengeful]

So we're talking about the pseudo-science of psychology from the APA and Peterson and acting like one has more credibility than the other?

 

[Michael Conley]

So we're talking about the pseudo-science of psychology from the APA and Peterson and acting like one has more credibility than the other?

Not an argument.

 

[Rod1]

Correlation doesnt implies causation.

Its far more likely that fatherless kids already come from shitty, conflicting backgrounds.

You need to control for income and the such, maybe using widows whose partners left a pension.

 

[m25105]

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jo...vs-science-in-psychologys-war-on-boys-and-men

Checkmate liberals.

Yeah, I always see Liberal posters here writing what a bad thing it is to have a father in your life. Checkmate indeed.

 

[Zankou]

He doesn't really have a point here at all. Traits that are associated with "toxic masculinity" tend to be traits that stem from a lack of understanding of masculinity. If anything, not having a positive male role model (or any male role model) would increase the likelihood a young man not understanding what proper masculinity looks like.

I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because they are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is doing here.

For example, good fathers don't teach their kids that catcalling women in the street makes them more of a man. But kids with no positive male role models may think that it shows machismo. That is where the toxic part comes in.

I think people are offended by the term ‘toxic masculinity’ because it is fake-as-fuck, with not an iota more scientific validity than ‘toxic blackness,’ ‘toxic leftism,’ or ‘toxic Islam.’ It’s just a shitty pejorative term for things that somebody doesn’t like about something. It’s okay not to like various things, sure, but to act as though this dislike is some sort of scientific category—rather than a specific political stance—is just fraud.

Unfortunately this has long been a problem for psychology as a discipline...stepping away from empirical data and trying to pretend that a contingent political stance is ‘science.’ Peterson, as far as I can tell, is often guilty of the same thing.

Hence psychology is dominated by terrible scientists who dabble in terrible philosophy.

 

[Gregolian]

I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because they are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is doing here.

I also think this perception matters on where you live.

If like me you live in a very liberal college town.... "toxic masculinity" gets thrown around so damn much it loses any sort of value or impact it has kind of like how "that's racist" has lost it too.

I know I wrote about it before but me and a door guy at the bar I work at were accused of it for holding a door open for a girl the other weekend, to the point when she came in after a smoke he held it closed on her to be a dick and prove a point.

 

[Zankou]

Correlation doesnt implies causation.

Its far more likely that fatherless kids already come from shitty, conflicting backgrounds.

You need to control for income and the such, maybe using widows whose partners left a pension.

I think that nearly every peer reviewed study in this area starts off with that issue, and controls for it. Psychological research may generally be terrible, sure, but it’s not usually *that* terrible.

 

[nac386]

I also think this perception matters on where you live.

If like me you live in a very liberal college town.... "toxic masculinity" gets thrown around so damn much it loses any sort of value or impact it has kind of like how "that's racist" has lost it too.

I know I wrote about it before but me and a door guy at the bar I work at were accused of it for holding a door open for a girl the other weekend, to the point when she came in after a smoke he held it closed on her to be a dick and prove a point.

Yeah, that is why I make a point of not using any buzzwords ever. Buzzwords become meaningless when the masses get a hold of them and run them into the ground. I would never actually use the term "toxic masculinity" in any circumstance, even if I understand the intent of the term. I'd rather describe what I'm seeing in a way that eliminates the political buzz, because so many people would automatically dismiss it once they hear the buzzword.

 

[EndlessCritic]

He doesn't really have a point here at all. Traits that are associated with "toxic masculinity" tend to be traits that stem from a lack of understanding of masculinity. If anything, not having a positive male role model (or any male role model) would increase the likelihood a young man not understanding what proper masculinity looks like.

I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because they are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is doing here.

For example, good fathers don't teach their kids that catcalling women in the street makes them more of a man. But kids with no positive male role models may think that it shows machismo. That is where the toxic part comes in.

But this would only be true if the majority masculinity is healthy masculinity. Yet the precise narrative that is being perpetuated is that "normal" masculinity is "toxic". You can't have it both ways.

 

[Gregolian]

Yeah, that is why I make a point of not using any buzzwords ever. Buzzwords become meaningless when the masses get a hold of them and run them into the ground. I would never actually use the term "toxic masculinity" in any circumstance, even if I understand the intent of the term. I'd rather describe what I'm seeing in a way that eliminates the political buzz, because so many people would automatically dismiss it once they hear the buzzword.

Like, as an example in my town.

I worked for awhile with a girl (that is now a roommate) who is bisexual at a bar. At the time she was a bouncer that was hired BASICALLY to specifically aid in kicking out any girls they had to kick out.

We had a lesbian couple making out on the dance floor. PDA is weird to me, especially blatant, but I was raised by a dad that remembers Victory in Europe and Japan days as some of his first memories and a mother that remembers American Marines and GIs in Japan running security post war. But this couple wasn't just making out, they were like eyes rolling back into their head one has their hand down the other's pants basically finger banging each other. Female Bouncer kicks them out.

Their FIRST FUCKING reaction is this female bouncer was a bigot/homophobe..... all the while this bouncer has a damn rainbow flag tattoo on her arm for the whole world to see.

THAT'S the sorta town I live in.


I personally have been accused of being a racist when I've kicked out Mexicans, Natives, or Black guys by the white college kid... when I look and have been mistaken for being Samoan, Arab, Native, and Mexican myself.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

This is all bullshit designed by women to cover up the fact they have penis envy.

 

[Prokofievian]

Ugh. So, instead of engaging with the arguments of the papers the report uses to make the claim that ''socialization for conforming to traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict, and negatively influence mental health,'' or even name them, I have to go to the report myself, and then go to google scholar, and then read the papers for myself, and then decide if anything Kermit has to say here controverts anything those papers say. Fuckin' asshole...makin' me do stuff.

From a cursory glance, my guess would be no since he largely ignores most of the claims to focus only on aggression, when the report identifies many other dimensions of mental health, a big one for men being suicide.

 

[Gregolian]

This is all bullshit designed by women to cover up the fact they have penis envy.

Look up the video for a female pissing aid (basically, a way to make it so they don't have to squat to piss on the side of the road or camping in the woods) called the "Shenis" and take a look at the length.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Look up the video for a female pissing aid (basically, a way to make it so they don't have to squat to piss on the side of the road or camping in the woods) called the "Shenis" and take a look at the length.

lol

 

[JonesBones]

I think people are offended by the term ‘toxic masculinity’ because it is fake-as-fuck, with not an iota more scientific validity than ‘toxic blackness,’ ‘toxic leftism,’ or ‘toxic Islam.’ It’s just a shitty pejorative term for things that somebody doesn’t like about something. It’s okay not to like various things, sure, but to act as though this dislike is some sort of scientific category—rather than a specific political stance—is just fraud.

Unfortunately this has long been a problem for psychology as a discipline...stepping away from empirical data and trying to pretend that a contingent political stance is ‘science.’ Peterson, as far as I can tell, is often guilty of the same thing.

Hence psychology is dominated by terrible scientists who dabble in terrible philosophy.

OMG, can you imagine if "scientists" studied toxic Islam? lol. The fuckin outrage. How is this any different than the stuff James Watson says?