International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[Strychnine]

This is the premier thread to discuss the Israeli/Hamas war.

Link to previous version of the thread is below.

International - Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VI

This is the premier thread to discuss the Israeli/Hamas war. Link to previous version of the thread is below. https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/hamas-launches-surprise-attack-on-israel-israel-has-declared-a-state-of-war-vol-v.4316121/

forums.sherdog.com

Thank you for your participation in this thread. Yes, this is a critical matter but please let's keep our heads and remember that we're all adults here.

 

[kflo]

@Siver! that article doesn’t say what would have happened in Gaza had Israel blocked all funding for Gaza.

In the end, in hindsight, it was the wrong move. But either way, there was pending disaster in Gaza.

So I’ll ask again, had Israel blocked funding, what would have happened?

And more, many of the critics of allowing funding in are further right of Bibi.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

@Siver! that article doesn’t say what would have happened in Gaza had Israel blocked all funding for Gaza.

In the end, in hindsight, it was the wrong move. But either way, there was pending disaster in Gaza.

So I’ll ask again, had Israel blocked funding, what would have happened?

And more, many of the critics of allowing funding in are further right of Bibi.

Give Palestinians borders, define them, agree them, and move on.

If there are skirmishes over disagreements, it will be no different to other disputes worldwide, we have them in Europe, and they will lead to significantly fewer deaths.

Stop killing Palestinians (first), stop controlling basic amenities (second), and let it become a state with full autonomy (third).

If Palestinians destroy themselves, leave them to it.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

@Siver!

You wrote

No one gives a fuck about Hamas. Kill them all.

But do not eradicate or starve or destroy the Gazan people.

You are just another guy who cannot differentiate between citizen and soldier.

Extremists like Netanyahu need people like you to support them while they kill citizens.

They need you to make excuses so they can carry on.

When you are intent to bomb, starve, and kill the entire community... whatever your excuse (ie, we're targeting Hamas, honest)... that is a genocide.

I've written in the previous thread that it's hard for me to sympathetize with the Gazans when they 1. Participated in the 10/7 massacres themselves 2. Shield and aid Hamas terrorists 3. Show overwhelming amount of approval for Hamas.

Hamas represents the people of Gaza both militarily and politically. They were elected by the Gazans to represent them in 2006. They're just as complicit as the terrorists in the violence committed against the innocent Israeli civilians. If they had any modicum of moral conscience, they would be protesting against their Hamas rulers, but instead I've seen nothing but support rallies in favor of them.

Cut off support for Hamas, stop shielding them, and maybe engage in a little rebellion or protest against their leaders and maybe, just maybe I will change my mind about the Gazans.

 

[kflo]

Give Palestinians borders, define them, agree them, and move on.

If there are skirmishes over disagreements, it will be no different to other disputes worldwide, we have them in Europe, and they will lead to significantly fewer deaths.

Stop killing Palestinians (first), stop controlling basic amenities (second), and let it become a state with full autonomy (third).

If Palestinians destroy themselves, leave them to it.

That doesn’t address the question. If funding for Gaza dried up, what happens and how does that eliminate hamas from power?

Again, you guys want to pretend hamas magically disappears or changes their stripes.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

I've written in the previous thread that it's hard for me to sympathetize with the Gazans when they 1. Participated in the 10/7 massacres themselves 2. Shield and aid Hamas terrorists 3. Show overwhelming amount of approval for Hamas.

Hamas represents the people of Gaza both militarily and politically. They were elected by the Gazans to represent them in 2006. They're just as complicit as the terrorists in the violence committed against the innocent Israeli civilians. If they had any modicum of moral conscience, they would be protesting against their Hamas rulers, but instead I've seen nothing but support rallies in favor of them.

Cut off support for Hamas, stop shielding them, and maybe engage in a little rebellion or protest against their leaders and maybe, just maybe I will change my mind about the Gazans.

Gazans 'shield and aid' Hamas terrorists...

Hamas use Gazans as 'human shields'...

Any fucking port in a storm springs to mind...

 

[Deleted member 585708]

That doesn’t address the question. If funding for Gaza dried up, what happens and how does that eliminate hamas from power?

Again, you guys want to pretend hamas magically disappears or changes their stripes.

That question doesn't even make sense.

Israel shouldn't be concerned with the 'funding for Gaza'.

Let Palestine worry about that as an autonomous state.

 

[kflo]

That question doesn't even make sense.

Israel shouldn't be concerned with the 'funding for Gaza'.

Let Palestine worry about that as an autonomous state.

?

You complained that bibi “propped up hamas” by allowing funding in.

Again, Gaza is a state governed by fuckin hamas.

It’s nonsensical to say just give them borders and move on. Hamas. It’s insane.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

?

You complained that bibi “propped up hamas” by allowing funding in.

Again, Gaza is a state governed by fuckin hamas.

It’s nonsensical to say just give them borders and move on. Hamas. It’s insane.

The extremist Israeli government propped up Hamas by controlling not only funding, but ALL of their options and amenities, for the expressed purpose of disuniting Palestine.

They did so purely to make material gains at the expense of Palestinians, as exploitation was easier.

It backfired.

Netanyahu is dumb, but at least he convinced bad actors like you.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

Gazans 'shield and aid' Hamas terrorists...

Hamas use Gazans as 'human shields'...

Any fucking port in a storm springs to mind...

What the fuck does that even mean?

 

[kflo]

The extremist Israeli government propped up Hamas by controlling not only funding, but ALL of their options and amenities, for the expressed purpose of disuniting Palestine.

They did so purely to make material gains at the expense of Palestinians, as exploitation was easier.

It backfired.

Netanyahu is dumb, but at least he convinced bad actors like you.

ah, gloves are off friend…..

again, what happens if funding isn’t allowed into gaza? Or “options and amenties””? You gonna answer?

yes, not militarily eradicating Hamas in the past backfired.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

1st page posting. Shalom!

 

[Anewt]

Hamas represents the people of Gaza both militarily and politically. They were elected by the Gazans to represent them in 2006. They're just as complicit as the terrorists in the violence committed against the innocent Israeli civilians. If they had any modicum of moral conscience, they would be protesting against their Hamas rulers, but instead I've seen nothing but support rallies in favor of them.

Dunno man.... 2006 is a looong way back...

Even if it was a well held democratic election.... which would be highly surprising to me. Considering the average age of gazans is 18....... it means the vaaaast majority of Palestinians have absolutely nothing to do with hamas being elected.

This perception that Palestinians on a whole have loyalty to hamas seems flawed by the independent polling. I'd found before October 7th. Public perception was shifting away from hamas. I figured it was part of the reason they provoked Israel so hard. Fuck over Israelis and cause the reaction to fuck over Palestinians that enables them to maintain their grasp on power.

[ polls from ] July 2023


(5) Legislative and presidential elections:
• 69% want elections to take place but 67% do not expect that to happen
• In elections between president Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh, Haniyeh wins 56% and
Abbas 33%
• Satisfaction with Abbas stands at 17% and 80% want him to resign
• In parliamentary elections, Hamas receives 34% of the popular vote and Fateh 31%
• 31% say Hamas deserve to represent the Palestinian people and 21% say Fateh led by
Abbas deserves to do that
• 46% believe that Hamas' victory in student elections at Birzeit and An-Najah
universities reflects public attitudes Palestinian in the West Bank


A majority of 69% say it supports the holding of presidential and legislative elections in the
Palestinian territories in the near future while 28% say they do not support that. Demand for
elections stands at 77% in the Gaza Strip and 63% in the West Bank. However, a majority of 67% believes no legislative, or legislative and presidential, elections will take place soon.

Domestic conditions:
• 84% believe there is corruption in PA institutions and 73% believe there is corruption
in Hamas-run institutions in the Gaza Strip
• 63% say the PA is a burden on the Palestinian people
• 25% want to emigrate, 29% in the Gaza Strip and 22% in the West Bank

(7) Palestinian-Israeli Relations and the Peace process:
• Only 28% support the two-state solution
• 53% support a return to an armed intifada, 47% support waging peaceful resistance,
and 26% support a one-state solution
• 52% believe that armed action is the best way to end occupation
• 46% expect the fall of the Netanyahu government due to the protest demonstrations

Most vital Palestinian goals and the main problems confronting Palestinians today:
• 38% say that the establishment of a Palestinian state should be the first goal of the
Palestinian people
• Corruption is the first problem facing Palestinian society today in the eyes of 25% of
the public
• The most pressing problem for Palestinians today is the continuation of occupation in
the eyes of 38% of the public.

 

[Anewt]

@Chad R. Thundercock

Sadly it's been extremely effective for hamas.

Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign

The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.

apnews.com

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians published Wednesday shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up even in the devastated Gaza Strip

The survey provided insights about Palestinian views of the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas and other Gaza militants in southern Israel, in which about 1,200 people were killed, most of them civilians. More than 18,400 Palestinians, about two-thirds of them women and children, have been killed in a sustained bombing campaign and ground offensive in Gaza during Israel’s subsequent war on Hamas, now in its third month.


At the same time, 44% in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12% in September. In Gaza, the militants enjoyed 42% support, up slightly from 38% three months ago.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

Dunno man.... 2006 is a looong way back...

Even if it was a well held democratic election.... which would be highly surprising to me. Considering the average age of gazans is 18....... it means the vaaaast majority of Palestinians have absolutely nothing to do with hamas being elected.

This perception that Palestinians on a whole have loyalty to hamas seems flawed by the independent polling. I'd found before October 7th. Public perception was shifting away from hamas. I figured it was part of the reason they provoked Israel so hard. Fuck over Israelis and cause the reaction to fuck over Palestinians that enables them to maintain their grasp on power.

[ polls from ] July 2023


(5) Legislative and presidential elections:
• 69% want elections to take place but 67% do not expect that to happen
• In elections between president Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh, Haniyeh wins 56% and
Abbas 33%
• Satisfaction with Abbas stands at 17% and 80% want him to resign
• In parliamentary elections, Hamas receives 34% of the popular vote and Fateh 31%
• 31% say Hamas deserve to represent the Palestinian people and 21% say Fateh led by
Abbas deserves to do that
• 46% believe that Hamas' victory in student elections at Birzeit and An-Najah
universities reflects public attitudes Palestinian in the West Bank


A majority of 69% say it supports the holding of presidential and legislative elections in the
Palestinian territories in the near future while 28% say they do not support that. Demand for
elections stands at 77% in the Gaza Strip and 63% in the West Bank. However, a majority of 67% believes no legislative, or legislative and presidential, elections will take place soon.

Domestic conditions:
• 84% believe there is corruption in PA institutions and 73% believe there is corruption
in Hamas-run institutions in the Gaza Strip
• 63% say the PA is a burden on the Palestinian people
• 25% want to emigrate, 29% in the Gaza Strip and 22% in the West Bank

(7) Palestinian-Israeli Relations and the Peace process:
• Only 28% support the two-state solution
• 53% support a return to an armed intifada, 47% support waging peaceful resistance,
and 26% support a one-state solution
• 52% believe that armed action is the best way to end occupation
• 46% expect the fall of the Netanyahu government due to the protest demonstrations

Most vital Palestinian goals and the main problems confronting Palestinians today:
• 38% say that the establishment of a Palestinian state should be the first goal of the
Palestinian people
• Corruption is the first problem facing Palestinian society today in the eyes of 25% of
the public
• The most pressing problem for Palestinians today is the continuation of occupation in
the eyes of 38% of the public.

The only statistics that matters to me is this:

 

[koquerelle]

That doesn’t address the question. If funding for Gaza dried up, what happens and how does that eliminate hamas from power?

Again, you guys want to pretend hamas magically disappears or changes their stripes.

Why did Bibi made it easy to funnel money to them then? What was the end game?

 

[Anewt]

The only statistics that matters to me is this:

Eh like always polls can be used in anyway shape or form so who really knows. But it seems a unlikely majority when viewed with the independent polls I've seen.


Although once again. It's gone up since Israel's response. Which was my point

Survey offers a window into Palestinians’ views ahead of the Hamas attack

Stanford’s Program on Arab Reform and Democracy – housed at the Center on Democracy, Development, and the Rule of Law – hosted an event last Wednesday to discuss the Arab Barometer’s most recent survey, which concluded just as Hamas conducted its Oct. 7 attack on Israel.

news.stanford.edu

 

 

[Rholk]

 

[Koya]

Funny how the title will stay "Hamas launch suprise attack" even after 100K gazans will have been killed. In the meantime there's a Russia/Ukraine megathread not a "Russia launches suprise attack on Ukraine".

Not biased at all

 

[Cole train]

Funny how the title will stay "Hamas launch suprise attack" even after 100K gazans will have been killed. In the meantime there's a Russia/Ukraine megathread not a "Russia launches suprise attack on Ukraine".

Not biased at all

Russia was not really suprise attack, massive build up over like 3 months on border and multiple intelligence agencies knew it was coming. Not to mention putin literally announced the date of invasion if i recall

I remember threads back then, was interesting in war room