Is there ideal shoulder positioning for boxing/muay thai/ kickboxing guard?

[Fat82]

Hi Everyone,

Just seeking a little clarity regarding your ideal shoulder positioning. I've seen guys enjoy success with both high [shrugged up, forward,] or right down [in socket?, forward].

Until my shoulder surgery i would keep my shoulders high and forward, but I was wondering, does this compromise rotator cuff safety?

Does lowered shoulders compromise defense for power?

I remember reading something about this -- pretty sure Connor Ruebusch mentioned it somewhere -- but I cant find it atm.

I also tried to find pic examples but no luck; from memory, Carlos Condit keeps his shoulders quite high, while Jake Ellenbuger has his low.

Sorry if this question has been discussed ad nausem.

 

[DoctorTaco]

My 2 cents- I was taught to keep my shoulders relaxed, hands up, and chin down. I tuck my chin into my shoulder when throwing punches and Thai kicks.

Relaxed shoulders don't burn out as quick and help with hand speed.

 

[Fat82]

This is what I'm talking about; Siver shrugged shoulders v Cub's low ones.

 

[GoatyP]

Really depends on your fighting style and how you are taught. Both stances have their merits. There is no such thing as an ideal positioning... If there is, then all the top fighters would be the same.

 

[Fat82]

I think Ive phrased the question badly.

Do shrugged shoulders compromise rotator cuff safety in comparison to lowered shoulders?

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

shoulder in the socket. No shrugged, relaxed. And yes, shrugged shoulder does compromised rotator cuff.

 

[Marbig]

you also get tired faster when you tense up your shoulders

 

[a guy]

This is what I'm talking about; Siver shrugged shoulders v Cub's low ones.

That's actually a great picture to show why having the shoulders down is preferable. Look at where Siver's head is in relation to his body, it's closer than the rest of his torso and much easier to hit than Cub's. Cub gets his shoulder up using his hips, Siver does it artificially by lifting his shoulders--which does both compromise and tire them out. Another important point is that with the shoulders compromised and the head forward like that, Siver's very badly positioned to take a punch.

 

[PivotPunch]

I imagine that it wears your shoulders out and makes your punches tensed up if you fight with high shoulders all the time. I can't think of any elite boxer who fights with high shoulders as their basic stance

 

[Jukai]

Wow, this site is a bunch of pussies.

Over at http://www.martialartsplanet.com, we have a real forum. Not this retarded bjj rolling on the floor or slow Muay Thai. We train lethal arts of Karate, Ninjitsu, and TKD. Some of our members even learn the old Chinese forms.

You think you could ever beat anyone on our forum? You guys are pathetic. Probably train once a week while you drink beer and watch football.

He's right, guys :icon_sad:

 

[a guy]

^^lol that didn't take long

 

[Discipulus]

You probably know where I stand on this, TS, since your picture is taken from an article of mine.

I'll add to what a guy said about the postures in that picture. Not only is Siver's head closer to Cub's but his chin is very exposed. Cub's is only covered from one side by his raised shoulder, but because his shoulders are relaxed his chest also protects his chin from beneath. Siver, on the other hand, is completely vulnerable to uppercuts and other upward strikes. Relaxed shoulders also help to stabilize your upper back and neck, keeping your head from being whipped around by strikes.

And yes, hunched shoulders increase the risk to you shoulder joints. Especially if you've already had shoulder surgery, you don't want to put undue strain on the sockets. Keep the shoulders down and let them serve as efficient links between your body and your fists.

 

[aries]

I'm looking at Siver and thinking kyphosis. He's so tensed up, upper back rounded his head ends up sticking out like a turkey. If he gets clocked in that position all that muscle won't help him at all because it's not supporting his head.

It's quite common with muscular guys like Siver that they have overly tight internal rotators, pecs and lats especially, this is was makes it really difficult for them to get their hands up and stay relaxed. They are having to fight those big muscles which are acting like a giant bungee pulling their arms down.

Another tell tale sign is that he has flared elbows. This is a compensation pattern because he is lacking external rotation so to get his hands that high he has to internally rotate his arms which also compromises his posture and shoulder stability.

Keeping good range of motion is really important for a fighter. It's kind of funny since Siver has good kick flexibility but seems to have totally neglected his upperbody mobility.

 

[Discipulus]

On that note, good posture makes holding one's hands up a whole lot easier. With the chest up and the shoulders back, the elbows can just hang against the ribs, keeping your body protected while your hands sit at chin level.

 

[GMH23]

My 2 cents- I was taught to keep my shoulders relaxed, hands up, and chin down. I tuck my chin into my shoulder when throwing punches and Thai kicks.

Relaxed shoulders don't burn out as quick and help with hand speed.

Sums up what I was going to write

 

[DoctorTaco]

wow, this site is a bunch of pussies.

Over at http://www.martialartsplanet.com, we have a real forum. Not this retarded bjj rolling on the floor or slow muay thai. We train lethal arts of karate, ninjitsu, and tkd. Some of our members even learn the old chinese forms.

You think you could ever beat anyone on our forum? You guys are pathetic. Probably train once a week while you drink beer and watch football.

6/10

 

[Marbig]

Wow, this site is a bunch of pussies.

Over at http://www.martialartsplanet.com, we have a real forum. Not this retarded bjj rolling on the floor or slow Muay Thai. We train lethal arts of Karate, Ninjitsu, and TKD. Some of our members even learn the old Chinese forms.

You think you could ever beat anyone on our forum? You guys are pathetic. Probably train once a week while you drink beer and watch football.

do you call muay thai slow before or after you finish your tai chi forms?

 

[SummerStriker]

I used to be a big believer in the shoulder's up thing and my teacher still teaches it. I was eventually converted to the shoulders down and back promoted on this site.

Here is my main argument for it, as someone who almost always spars MMA / Freestyle - whatever advantage a high guard may or may not have for striking is traded off in MMA for the advantage a low guard has in wrestling. If there is a controversy, I think it is good to split the difference, keep at least the rear hand chin high, and sink back the shoulders.

It is much more comfortable.

Here is another thing - in real life if I'm shrugging my shoulders, it is 100% of the time because I'm confused or because my neck is hurt. High shoulders let your head turn more freely. Try looking around in both positions. I don't know that you want your head turning freely in a fight.

 

[Harukaze]

Relax the traps and levator scapulae, but keep your hands up and chin tucked in. So, that means no scapular elevation, upward rotation, and protraction and no lower cervical flexion, but there is glenoumeral flexion and abduction as well as upper cervical flexion. This makes you relaxed and fluid but still well-protected, and is also to conducive to elbows (that's why I abduct my shoulders slightly instead of keeping my elbows glued to my ribs).

Constant engagement of the upper traps and levator scapulae along with a forward bent posture ruins scapular mechanics and contributes to imbalanced periscapular and glenohumeral dynamics, leading to potential impingement and other orthopedic problems.

 

[a guy]

Relax the traps and levator scapulae, but keep your hands up and chin tucked in. So, that means no scapular elevation, upward rotation, and protraction and no lower cervical flexion, but there is glenoumeral flexion and abduction as well as upper cervical flexion. This makes you relaxed and fluid but still well-protected, and is also to conducive to elbows (that's why I abduct my shoulders slightly instead of keeping my elbows glued to my ribs).

Constant engagement of the upper traps and levator scapulae along with a forward bent posture ruins scapular mechanics and contributes to imbalanced periscapular and glenohumeral dynamics, leading to potential impingement and other orthopedic problems.

What he said.

Seriously, nice post.