How training specifically to beat bigger guys can hurt you

[brollikk]

The thread title may be a bit misleading. But here are just some of my late night/early morning thoughts on grappling in general.


The dichotomy of sport BJJ and grappling for MMA

It is a huge misconception especially amongst novices that these two areas/styles of grappling are the same. Perhaps against low level competition it can be the case. But it certainly isn't the case for high level/elite competition. In fact, it can be argued that training specifically for one, but competing in the other is a sure-fire recipe for failure/injury.


Where does size factor into this?

There are weight classes in both BJJ/sport grappling and MMA, however there is also one stark difference. During training, elite BJJ/grapplers train 100% against all other members of the team regardless of size. Because of the lack of striking, there is a much smaller risk of injury to the practitioner than training for MMA. An elite MMA fighter on the other hand will typically not spar hard against training partners that are too big (or too small). Again, emphasis on sparring hard. This is to avoid injury.


Styles being dictated by the rules

Due to the very nature of the rules/lack of striking in BJJ, there are simply more positions and movements that are considered safe/good that would be considered exactly the opposite in high level MMA. Some examples would be inverted guard, and guard pulling/butt scooting. Unfortunately, these very moves/positions make it VASTLY easier for smaller opponents in BJJ to defeat larger opponents. Simply watch the Mendes brothers demolish their competition. They even specifically state that they play long-range/open/DLR guard for this very purpose. Half guard is considered an inferior guard position in their eyes.

What about MMA?

Because of the fact that striking essentially eliminates the very positions that help neutralize the size difference, being the "biggest/strongest" guy in the division has FAR greater importance in MMA than in BJJ/grappling. There are simply not as many tools the smaller grappler/fighter can use against you to neutralize the difference. Strictly speaking about grappling and winning rounds in MMA, it is always better to be on top and also to be the one scoring the takedowns. The ability to wrestle is suddenly far more important in this realm than for sport BJJ.


Conclusions

MMA and BJJ have completely different styles of grappling, much more so now than ever due to the evolution of both sports. It is much easier to neutralize the size difference in BJJ due to the availability of a larger number of techniques/positions such as inverted guard and guard pulling. In MMA, because you don't have these tools at your disposal it is simply more important to be bigger/stronger than everyone else in your weight class. In addition, once you achieve this... you only need to worry about beating people that are at best the same size as you. In the gym/training environment, losing to much larger opponents should carry very little weight for MMA. Whereas for BJJ, more tools are available to you to adjust your game accordingly.


Again, this is just me typing shit up early in the morning. I am not trying to drop a huge bomb/make a super important point. It is more to create discussion and possibly help a lesser experienced grappler become more informed.

 

[Vitamin C]

What about when your only option is sparring with guys bigger than you in sport BJJ?

 

[spannered]

No offence, but I don't think this is a shocking revelation. BJJ was basically developed by Helio Gracie because of his small size and his desire to apply technique against larger opponents. BJJ, and sport BJJ included, Still involve techniques designed to forfeit strength.

Strikes on the ground nullify a lot of the fundamentals in traditional BJJ, hence the variation "MMA BJJ". Size dominated elements like wrestling are suddenly far more prominent and I don't think anyone who has spent any time in a gym would argue that the training methods are very different.

Just look at the guard for example.

With the introduction of strikes, one the of the most offensive and comfortable positions in straight BJJ is suddenly one of the most vulnerable in MMA BJJ.

We all know how Aldo in GSPs guard would end in MMA. GSP is too big and powerful. In straight BJJ, Aldo would give him a lot more problems. Even the casual fan would probably recognise this.

 

[Jeff Simpkins**]

Good point

 

[dalexan242]

I understand the premise that size matters less in BJJ than in MMA, but the only part where you touch on "training to beat bigger guys may hurt you" is the reference to the Mendes brothers abandoning half guard for open/DLR. But I'm not sure how favoring open/DLR over half guard really "hurts" your BJJ game-- half guard isn't usually a good guard for MMA or self-defense and I've never heard that half is necessarily superior to open/DLR against opponents of roughly equal size/weight. I liked the OP, it just doesn't really seem to match up with the title.

 

[Balto]

Competition BJJ does not train to defeat larger opponents. I'm not sure where you got that. That's a gym champion goal, not a tournament champion goal.

In competition, you fight guys in your weight class. The Mendes brothers are quite physically imposing at their weights. They have to cut down. You'll also notice that they don't compete in the Absolute.

You're assuming the casual BJJ training strategy of rolling with everyone is how guys prepare for serious competition. It isn't. They train preferentially with guys of comparable size and skill.

Very few guys under 200 lbs take the Absolute division seriously. There are exceptions, but in general most competitive guys are training to be physically imposing for their weight class and beat other guys of the same size.

The only guys asking the question "Would this work if he were 100 lbs heavier than me?" are the self-defense oriented guys who aren't solely focused on competition.

 

[Shemhazai]

I understand the premise that size matters less in BJJ than in MMA, but the only part where you touch on "training to beat bigger guys may hurt you" is the reference to the Mendes brothers abandoning half guard for open/DLR. But I'm not sure how favoring open/DLR over half guard really "hurts" your BJJ game-- half guard isn't usually a good guard for MMA or self-defense and I've never heard that half is necessarily superior to open/DLR against opponents of roughly equal size/weight. I liked the OP, it just doesn't really seem to match up with the title.

I don't think the point was so much that half guard specifically is a great position to play in MMA (though it can be for someone who has specialized in it), but that the most effective strategy to manage a larger opponent in pure grappling is one that keeps him at a slight distance, where he can't put his weight on you, whereas this creates room for GNP in MMA, where you either want to clinch and hold him close or basically just kick him off you.

It's similar to what Rener and Ryron were talking about in their 'BJJ for the streets' video recently, where they were going over differences in correct arm placement (framing vs. hugging) under side control in a non-striking vs. a striking environment.

 

[brollikk]

I don't think the point was so much that half guard specifically is a great position to play in MMA (though it can be for someone who has specialized in it), but that the most effective strategy to manage a larger opponent in pure grappling is one that keeps him at a slight distance, where he can't put his weight on you, whereas this creates room for GNP in MMA, where you either want to clinch and hold him close or basically just kick him off you.

It's similar to what Rener and Ryron were talking about in their 'BJJ for the streets' video recently, where they were going over differences in correct arm placement (framing vs. hugging) under side control in a non-striking vs. a striking environment.

exactly.


And balto, my point was not about "caring" about winning the absolutes so much as utilizing a style that negates the weight difference the most.

The mendes brothers use the de la riva guard/open guard/reverse de la riva for a very specific reason. If they are the biggest guys in their weight class, it only helps them dominate their opponents more. But the fact is that they have the option of using this style in BJJ whereas for MMA it would not be the case.

A good way for me to re-iterate this point would be like this:

You can use the de la riva/mendes brothers game or use a more traditional half guard/deep half guard game. Your choice.

When you face a guy that is lighter than you, or your own weight then you may succeed with both styles equally. However, when you start to face guys that are heavier and heavier than yourself... it is very clear that one of those styles is far superior to the other in terms of conserving energy and winning sport BJJ matches.

Assuming you only have a limited amount of time to train (which is the case for everyone), practicing the style that works the most efficiently against ALL opponents for sport BJJ is clearly the right choice.

Unfortunately, this is also the very style that will fail miserably in MMA currently (at the high levels).

 

[brollikk]

Back in the day (say 10+ years ago), people were not as good at BJJ as they are currently. The same applies for MMA. People simply trained BJJ in the gi and then used very similar moves against MMA opponents who were not very savy on the ground and succeeded.

Nowadays, to succeed at high level BJJ... you need to specialize in an all or nothing style that is just that: BUILT for sport BJJ and nothing else.

The same applies for MMA.

 

[triangle killer]

What if i do bjj purely for sport bjj and have no intention of mma?
If i did i am fairly sure my bjj would be different anyway e.g. Aim to be on top more

 

[Dirty Holt]

The concept makes little sense to me. The only time you are training to beat larger opponents is in a street fight. If that is your goal, then training with larger opponents is something you better be doing.

If you are training for competition, unless you are at the absolute top of your weightclass in size, you will be facing guys who are a bit bigger and stronger. How do you train to get a feel for those individuals? You train with people who are a bit bigger and stronger.

If you are having to constantly go up 2 weight classes in training, this is a matter of a shitty training environment for you, not a matter of flawed philosophy.

 

[sha]

On this topic I like to follow Marcelo Garcia's lead. He specifically says that he only uses techniques that work on everybody regardless of size, which is why he doesn't favor head and arm chokes and kimuras (although I'm sure he can probably still kimura anyone he pleases).

When you watch him roll, it seems like his game would translate pretty well to MMA and be effective against bigger opponents in that setting too. So I don't think it's always the case that training BJJ against bigger opponents hurts your MMA game, it's all about what kind of game you have.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Fuckin necro bump. Tired of getting injured by bigger stronger grapplers

 

[Karihtala]

Fuckin necro bump. Tired of getting injured by bigger stronger grapplers

Guess what helps? Start eating and lifting

 

[Calibur]

Fuckin necro bump. Tired of getting injured by bigger stronger grapplers

How're you getting injured?

 

[MaxMMA]

I disagree, Mixed Martial Arts training gives you more weapons against a larger opponent. First of all, if your fighting someone with a significant size advantage, I would argue that striking should be your first step. Trying to clinch up and wrestle against someone(even an inexperienced opponent) with a 40-50lb weight advantage shouldn't be your first move.

Even when the distance closes(as it usually does) the last place you want to be against someone bigger than you is on the bottom. You better be taking them down and putting their back to the ground.

DLR guard, inverted guard, butterfly guard, all these new fancy leg entanglements I'm seeing now all actually have their place in MMA/self defense, but not as a go to strategy(ryan hall cough cough), especially against someone with a significant size advantage. These positions are for when you are getting your ass kicked and you have no other options.

 

[ChainFlow]

What's the downside of butterfly guard in MMA? It's vastly more successful than full guard.

 

[Thycidides]

I've realizing that its a bad idea to train with people 25 pounds or more heavier in judo especially if they are newbies. If they are aggressive they throw I get injured and if they are defensive I overcommit to a technique and get hurt.

Also in Judo height is really important and determines what move is most efficient more so than size specifically . Coaches really should pair people up in accordance to height rather than let the 6'2 guy train with the 5'7 guy.

In BJJ its seems to be less of a problem.

I see people under 200 pound compete in the local absolute divisions.

 

[MaxMMA]

What's the downside of butterfly guard in MMA? It's vastly more successful than full guard.

I didn't mean to say butterfly guard was more or less effective than full or half guard, as I said, all these positions have their place in a fight, but dropping or flipping down underneath someone (especially someone larger than you) that is trying to smash your face, isn't it.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

How're you getting injured?

A strong catch wrestler 40 lbs heavier popped my elbow (kesa gatame v-bar) and then a month later a wrestler 60 lbs heavier popped my other elbow. (straight arm-lock from guard)

I also have had my ankle popped from a guy 100 lbs heavier than me. (toe hold) (My fault I didn't tap, thought he couldn't finish it without isolating my leg with his legs, I was literally sitting on his chest and he used his massive biceps to crank my ankle)

As an mma guy I'm done training with guys over 20 lbs heavier. All my major injuries have been from big guys using all their strength against me