How to learn Swordplay

Rob Battisti

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I'm getting interested in learning some sword fighting skills. I know there are many different places to start. Some sport type training such as fencing or kendo (I've heard its more sport these days) or HEMA. I don't have much knowledge about HEMA but it looks like they train grappling as well as heavy weapons training.

What's the best route I should go? Should I seek out training or just build a wooden dummy and go to town?
 
I'm not trying to be a dick here...but why? I assume not for any practical real life scenarios? Unless you're living an extremely interesting and exciting lifestyle.
 
I'm not trying to be a dick here...but why? I assume not for any practical real life scenarios? Unless you're living an extremely interesting and exciting lifestyle.

I already train 'useful' MA but the 'non-useful' ones are still interesting.
 
Find a fencing club nearby and start training and pracitcing with them.
Would probably be the fastest way to learn, and probably the most fun as you will be fencing others.

My 2 cents. No practical experience here myself, but seems would be the most workable
 
Find a fencing club nearby and start training and pracitcing with them.
Would probably be the fastest way to learn, and probably the most fun as you will be fencing others.

My 2 cents. No practical experience here myself, but seems would be the most workable

That seems like the best bet but I don't particularly want to learn the olympic style with the emphasis on stabs.
 
That seems like the best bet but I don't particularly want to learn the olympic style with the emphasis on stabs.

Go practice it specifically to adapt the moves to knife fighting. (put that in your mind)

You get used to the tight end movements, (jabs and cuts), like in epee, and all the rest of the shit out there will look like pterodactyl flapping coming at you. You'll be well inside it.


If you can find a real fencing master, it's very good. It's great for the footwork, the timing, it's great practice for reading body movement, and distance. You can practice full on too. You might dig it.
 
I actually learned sword play as a kid and kept with it until I was about sixteen or so. It's very difficult to find people who actually know what they are doing when it comes to traditional European martial arts but it is getting comparatively easier these days. I was lucky enough to learn from a person with a doctorate in a field very closely related to the subject and about 20 years of sword play experience, the only reason I got the hook up on that was because this person was a family friend. There are plenty of bonuses to learning too. You and especially your grip will get stronger, the foot work involved with things like fencing is very intricate and makes for a very solid and agile way of moving (much of the technical footwork utilized in boxing is descended from fencing) and sword fighting is just plain fun. There's other things you will pick up along the way also, I would encourage any one interested in this sort of thing to go out and do it.

Look for local groups that are interested in traditional European martial arts. Do not take theatrical classes they only teach you how to look like you know what you're doing.
 
Lets discount kendo and fencing for a moment and discuss other options.

If you are into Japanese style swordsmanship you have some options. Forget Koryu kenjustsu..outside of Japan finding a legitimate Dojo is very difficult.

1) Shinkendo. The founder of Shinkendo is Toshishiro Obata, a very legitimate Japanese swordsman and Iaido champion. You can find Shinkendo in many major cities in the US now.

2) Bujinkan, Jinenkan etc etc. These organisations teach ninjutsu. While it has alot of ninja larping and bullshido, they do teach some authentic techniques.

3) Haedong Gumdo. Haedong (or Haidong) Gumdo is a korean style created in the 80's. Its basically Toyama Ryu Kenjutsu, mixed with Gicheong il su kung fu swordsmanship and relabeled in Korean. Gumdo is very accessible and does teach legitimate and effective stuff. Their main focus is cutting, and Gumdo cutters are amongst the best in the world. The Koreans are a more flamboyant people than the Japanese, and Gumdo reflects this.

Not to be confused with Daehan Gumdo which is Korean Kendo.

If the European stuff interests you, then find a HEMA outfit. You can generally find a group in almost every major city now. The quality of training varies enormously, from very high to sub-backyard ninja level. The major styles are as follows

1) The german school: This is a catch all term for a style of longsword fencing that originated with a master called Johannes Liechtenauer. Its the best documented and by far the most popular. It has some very unique concepts and techniques I haven't seen anywhere else, and favours a very aggressive style of fighting.

2) The Fiorean School: The second most popular was an italian master named Fiore. Whereas the german school is flamboyant and aggressive, Fiore is more conservative and his style can perhaps be categorised as a counterstriking style. Fiore's manuscript describes a completely integrated system of weapon use that covers swords, daggers, spears, polearms, grappling and mounted fighting. The system is set up in such a way that you can apply the techniques to just about any weapon, and knowledge of one weapon transfers over to all the others. I know of two people who have used fiore's stuff in actual personal self defense..one was a police officer who used fiore's dagger defenses against a would be shanker, and another was someone who applied fiore's armoured sword techniques with her umbrella to fight off an attacker.

3) Bolognese: The Bolognese or Dardi school is growing in popularity. It emphasizes single handed cut and thrust sword use and sword and buckler. The Dardi school looks very elegant and flowing, and in friendly fights places a high emphasis on style. That being said, in lethal combat, the Dardi school switches to straight forward and practical sword craft. Its effectiveness can be seen in the fact that modern sport fencing ultimately derives from the Dardi school.

4) I.33 sword and buckler: named after "Tower Manuscript" or I.33. I do not know much about I.33 sword and buckler, but its a fairly popular form.

5) Rapier: People have a strange misconception that rapier is somehow less masculine or warlike than the two handed blades. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rapiers weigh almost as much as a twohanded longsword, yet are wielded in one hand. The stances and techniques of most rapier systems are quite unnatural and are far more physically demanding than longsword. Rapiers are *deadly*. There are many schools that teach rapier.

6) Messerfechten: Messers are a long knifelike weapon, similar to a chinese dao. some schools teach messer.
 
I'm getting interested in learning some sword fighting skills. I know there are many different places to start. Some sport type training such as fencing or kendo (I've heard its more sport these days) or HEMA. I don't have much knowledge about HEMA but it looks like they train grappling as well as heavy weapons training.

What's the best route I should go? Should I seek out training or just build a wooden dummy and go to town?

Where are you located?
 
That seems like the best bet but I don't particularly want to learn the olympic style with the emphasis on stabs.

Olympic-rules sabre fencing allows slashing. In fact, it's integral to the style.

There are technically three fencing rulesets as seen in the Olympics based on the weapon being used. The three weapons are foil, epee, and sabre.

Foil fencing is derived from dueling, hence there are many rules and regulations. Target area is limited to the entire torso (front and back), throat, and crotch (!) as outlined by the inguinal fold (which is coincidentally where your jacket cuts off). The only allowed attacks are thrust-based (i.e. stabbing) due to the shape of the weapon (it's basically an oversized, 4-sided nail), and there is right-of-way: the fencer that thrusts first has right-of-way, and the other fencer cannot attack until the first fencer's attack is parried; right of way is then established for the second fencer (the one that parried first). It sounds hokey and unrealistic, but consider this: foil fencing is based on old dueling rulesets, and considering the target area, any stabs are potentially life-threatening. Hence there is the right of way rule; also, right of way makes for very high-paced back and forth matches that can be quite enjoyable and entertaining.

Epee fencing is derived from soldiers' sword fighting, and hence is very open in its ruleset. Up until the Napoleonic era, epee fencing was a required skills for most continental military scouts and messengers (along with horse riding and the ability to run for long distances). There is no right of way, and the entire body is a legal target -- this reflects the reality of military sword fighting: dispatch your opponent and move on. Again, due to the shape of the blade (it's basically an oversized V-shaped long wedge of steel), stabbing is the only viable method of attack. Epee matches are often very still, with brief explosions of action. Because anywhere is a legal target, epee matches can end very suddenly.

Lastly, sabre fencing is derived cavalry warfare. Again, there is no right of way, and the entire upper body is a legal target (the idea being that a wound to the leg would not have been enough to incapacitate a mounted soldier while on his horse). Because of the shape and original purpose of the weapon, both stabbing and slashing are legal attacks. Sabre matches are the most physically intensive and potentially "messy" due to the fact that slashing is core part of the ruleset, and sabeurists tend to be the most strong and powerful of all fencers.

Most fencing schools will start you on foil until you get the basics, then graduate you to your preferred ruleset afterwards.
 
I'm getting interested in learning some sword fighting skills. I know there are many different places to start. Some sport type training such as fencing or kendo (I've heard its more sport these days) or HEMA. I don't have much knowledge about HEMA but it looks like they train grappling as well as heavy weapons training.

What's the best route I should go? Should I seek out training or just build a wooden dummy and go to town?


Watch this:

 
Find a local (Association of Renaissance Martial Arts) ARMA group. It appears to be a lot like the HEMA group someone else previously mentioned. I don't know anything about HEMA but I did go to an ARMA group for awhile and I'd still do it as it was really fun and learned quite a bit. No it isn't practical as some have criticized but it is fun as hell and it is a great way to blow off steam.

They cover all the same weapons mentioned about HEMA and even include some medieval wrestling styles one in particular a German style called Ringun (sp) and even study of some ancient pankration (unfortunately it was mostly study of techniques from photos on pottery and vases but still fun none the less), but the bread and butter is long sword. No matter what weapon is being covered that week everything starts with basic strikes and positions with a long sword. Most of the groups have printouts as well from medieval books. Depending on the particular group they will either have a more Italian or German tendency in the covered material but from what I've seen there isn't too much difference except the Italian styles didn't seem to cover the close in aspect that the German style did.

Also it tends to attract some people with some skills. The group I went to had a guy that was a fencing/sword choreographer for movies, another guy was on a jousting tournament circuit. All these people were more than happy to share their skills and tips.

Finally the really fun part was everyone suited up with basically homemade safety "armor" and with weighted padded weapons put to practical use what we learned. Usually ended up leaving with at least a couple bruises, maybe a small cut or two and once in awhile a headache (getting hit in the head with a two handed swing of a sword even when you are wearing head gear still hurts.

ARMA has a website as well, they can tell you about a local chapter. also It is something like $20 to join and if you are really interested they have certifications you can work towards like level 1 swordsman.

Hope this helps.
 
Find a local (Association of Renaissance Martial Arts) ARMA group. It appears to be a lot like the HEMA group someone else previously mentioned. I don't know anything about HEMA but I did go to an ARMA group for awhile and I'd still do it as it was really fun and learned quite a bit. No it isn't practical as some have criticized but it is fun as hell and it is a great way to blow off steam.

They cover all the same weapons mentioned about HEMA and even include some medieval wrestling styles one in particular a German style called Ringun (sp) and even study of some ancient pankration (unfortunately it was mostly study of techniques from photos on pottery and vases but still fun none the less), but the bread and butter is long sword. No matter what weapon is being covered that week everything starts with basic strikes and positions with a long sword. Most of the groups have printouts as well from medieval books. Depending on the particular group they will either have a more Italian or German tendency in the covered material but from what I've seen there isn't too much difference except the Italian styles didn't seem to cover the close in aspect that the German style did.

Also it tends to attract some people with some skills. The group I went to had a guy that was a fencing/sword choreographer for movies, another guy was on a jousting tournament circuit. All these people were more than happy to share their skills and tips.

Finally the really fun part was everyone suited up with basically homemade safety "armor" and with weighted padded weapons put to practical use what we learned. Usually ended up leaving with at least a couple bruises, maybe a small cut or two and once in awhile a headache (getting hit in the head with a two handed swing of a sword even when you are wearing head gear still hurts.

ARMA has a website as well, they can tell you about a local chapter. also It is something like $20 to join and if you are really interested they have certifications you can work towards like level 1 swordsman.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for the info!

That's how I viewed it. I've practiced MMA and BJJ for years and I originally got into it off of a TKD and wrestling background growing up. I would imagine that these guys doing HEMA or ARMA also have other skills they are bringing to the table.

In the end its just for fun, but humans had fought with hand weapons for thousands of years. Must be some reason why men are drawn to it.
 
In the end its just for fun, but humans had fought with hand weapons for thousands of years. Must be some reason why men are drawn to it.

Most of the costume play stuff is just for fun, but there are some takeaways you can put in your bag of tricks from a good Fencing coach, like visualizing to capitalize quick openings.

You know:

UFC-Fight-Night-38-Results-Dan-Henderson-H-Bombs-Shogun-Rua-Animated-Gif.gif
 
Find a local (Association of Renaissance Martial Arts) ARMA group. It appears to be a lot like the HEMA group someone else previously mentioned. I don't know anything about HEMA but I did go to an ARMA group for awhile and I'd still do it as it was really fun and learned quite a bit. No it isn't practical as some have criticized but it is fun as hell and it is a great way to blow off steam.

To clarify..ARMA is a HEMA organisation. Its just the oldest and best known. ;-)

They cover all the same weapons mentioned about HEMA and even include some medieval wrestling styles one in particular a German style called Ringun (sp) and even study of some ancient pankration

For those who are curious about such things, the medieval and renaissance european fighting men a grappling art as fully developed as Jujutsu or Judo. When used for play it was called Ringkunst, when used in battle it was called Kampfringen which translates to Battle Grappling. Strictly speaking, Kampfringen was the art described by wrestling master Ott Jud, but we use it as catch all term to describe all the combat grappling arts of the period, such as Italian Abrazare. You wont see much ground fighting, as it was designed for throwing and joint breaks. Here are some examples of ringen.

These ones are from the best ringen group in the world, Ringschule Wroclaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6P1boVkY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ge6l_bMLcs

difference except the Italian styles didn't seem to cover the close in aspect that the German style did.

Depends on the italian style. Fiore's unarmoured longsword is much more closely integrated with grappling than the german school imho. Whereas the germans prefer to wind from a hard bind, Fiore liked to close and perform join locks or disarms in what he calls the Giocco Stretto, the Close play'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WCgubznOlI

Armoured sword fighting, is, of course, almost all grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4

ARMA has a website as well, they can tell you about a local chapter. also It is something like $20 to join and if you are really interested they have certifications you can work towards like level 1 swordsman.

Hope this helps.

ARMA uses the rank system derived from a 15th century English Martial arts guild, the London Masters of Defense. You join as a novice. Once you reach a certain level, you take a test called a prize playing. In the prize playing, you are made to fight all comers, until everyone is satisfied. If you acquit yourself well, you are awarded the rank of Scholar. At another point you take another prize playing for the rank of free scholar. Then again to the rank of Provost. This system and variations of it are used in many HEMA orgs in the english speaking world. (incidentally, this is where we get the term prize fight from...people liked to watch these prize playings so they started charging money to see them, and so began the sport fighting culture in the english speaking world.)
 
Thanks for the info!

That's how I viewed it. I've practiced MMA and BJJ for years and I originally got into it off of a TKD and wrestling background growing up. I would imagine that these guys doing HEMA or ARMA also have other skills they are bringing to the table.

In the end its just for fun, but humans had fought with hand weapons for thousands of years. Must be some reason why men are drawn to it.

There are definitely some interesting individuals. The guy that ran the one down here in Hollywood, FL was a character. I show up and he has green and blue hair, his sons are named Achiles and Ajax. Once he got the guy that did joisting to work with us and we did it on bikes. It was fun but damn did I get beat up. Seems SweetDaddySki knows more about it than me, so I'm sure he could help

To clarify..ARMA is a HEMA organisation. Its just the oldest and best known. ;-)



For those who are curious about such things, the medieval and renaissance european fighting men a grappling art as fully developed as Jujutsu or Judo. When used for play it was called Ringkunst, when used in battle it was called Kampfringen which translates to Battle Grappling. Strictly speaking, Kampfringen was the art described by wrestling master Ott Jud, but we use it as catch all term to describe all the combat grappling arts of the period, such as Italian Abrazare. You wont see much ground fighting, as it was designed for throwing and joint breaks. Here are some examples of ringen.

These ones are from the best ringen group in the world, Ringschule Wroclaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6P1boVkY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ge6l_bMLcs



Depends on the italian style. Fiore's unarmoured longsword is much more closely integrated with grappling than the german school imho. Whereas the germans prefer to wind from a hard bind, Fiore liked to close and perform join locks or disarms in what he calls the Giocco Stretto, the Close play'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WCgubznOlI

Armoured sword fighting, is, of course, almost all grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4



ARMA uses the rank system derived from a 15th century English Martial arts guild, the London Masters of Defense. You join as a novice. Once you reach a certain level, you take a test called a prize playing. In the prize playing, you are made to fight all comers, until everyone is satisfied. If you acquit yourself well, you are awarded the rank of Scholar. At another point you take another prize playing for the rank of free scholar. Then again to the rank of Provost. This system and variations of it are used in many HEMA orgs in the english speaking world. (incidentally, this is where we get the term prize fight from...people liked to watch these prize playings so they started charging money to see them, and so began the sport fighting culture in the english speaking world.)

thanks for the info, I'd still be doing it if it wasn't for time constraints and the fact I'm more into mountain biking on the weekends at the moment. Although with the amount of wipe outs i have, the ARMA would definitely be cheaper and less injuries at this point.

For anyone remotely interested, it is fun and a nice take on things since so much of martial arts is Asian based and styled; finding that Europeans were just as in depth at melee arts prior to gunpowder is pretty cool and just fun.
 
Olympic-rules sabre fencing allows slashing. In fact, it's integral to the style.

There are technically three fencing rulesets as seen in the Olympics based on the weapon being used. The three weapons are foil, epee, and sabre.

Foil fencing is derived from dueling, hence there are many rules and regulations. Target area is limited to the entire torso (front and back), throat, and crotch (!) as outlined by the inguinal fold (which is coincidentally where your jacket cuts off). The only allowed attacks are thrust-based (i.e. stabbing) due to the shape of the weapon (it's basically an oversized, 4-sided nail), and there is right-of-way: the fencer that thrusts first has right-of-way, and the other fencer cannot attack until the first fencer's attack is parried; right of way is then established for the second fencer (the one that parried first). It sounds hokey and unrealistic, but consider this: foil fencing is based on old dueling rulesets, and considering the target area, any stabs are potentially life-threatening. Hence there is the right of way rule; also, right of way makes for very high-paced back and forth matches that can be quite enjoyable and entertaining.

Epee fencing is derived from soldiers' sword fighting, and hence is very open in its ruleset. Up until the Napoleonic era, epee fencing was a required skills for most continental military scouts and messengers (along with horse riding and the ability to run for long distances). There is no right of way, and the entire body is a legal target -- this reflects the reality of military sword fighting: dispatch your opponent and move on. Again, due to the shape of the blade (it's basically an oversized V-shaped long wedge of steel), stabbing is the only viable method of attack. Epee matches are often very still, with brief explosions of action. Because anywhere is a legal target, epee matches can end very suddenly.

Lastly, sabre fencing is derived cavalry warfare. Again, there is no right of way, and the entire upper body is a legal target (the idea being that a wound to the leg would not have been enough to incapacitate a mounted soldier while on his horse). Because of the shape and original purpose of the weapon, both stabbing and slashing are legal attacks. Sabre matches are the most physically intensive and potentially "messy" due to the fact that slashing is core part of the ruleset, and sabeurists tend to be the most strong and powerful of all fencers.

Most fencing schools will start you on foil until you get the basics, then graduate you to your preferred ruleset afterwards.

wrong about foil and epee. Foil was never a real weapon - it was derived from a training weapon and developed into a sport . Epee was based on a 19 cent dueling sword
 
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