How indepth is the sambo submission/ground game?

[Ogata]

Being involved in local judo clubs, I have noticed the ground/submission game to be limited. I feel like I don't have any good submission/ground route that I can transition. All I got is side control and some neck submissions. Aside from that, I am useless and open to all kind of locks/holds.


I am wondering if training in Sambo can compliment my judo or will it get in the way of my judo training? (I know sambo comes from judo but still wondering if the training protocols conflict with one another?)

 

[Thrawn33]

Find a better judo club or do BJJ.

 

[Gabicho]

SAMBO ground work has its differences from judo.
Different submissions are allowed - namely compression locks, ankle locks, kneebars, but no chokes (in Sport Sambo) - and the pin or osae komi can be gained from inside your opponent's guard or half guard.

Still, SAMBO groundwork is much more similar to Judo than BJJ is. The positional hierarchy of BJJ and it's scoring system does not really translate into judo. SAMBO does, for the most part.
Because of that, I'd still think that a very strong SAMBO training will compliment your judo better than BJJ training.
Not only because of the basic fundamental similarities, but also because pretty much all you are going to learn in BJJ, is ground work. From sambo training you can also get some nice grip/throw/reaps/sweeps variations in the stand-up department.

But all in all, don't expect to have the level of ne waza (ground game) a BJJ blackbelt or a SAMBO world champion (or a judo world champion) if you are a white/yellow/orange belt in Judo. Not going to happen.

 

[Alex]

I was doing Judo from 5 years old till about 15. My ground game was pretty much terrible as all I knew was kesa-gatame, a single transition to armbar and few chokes.
I'm 25 now and started training BJJ a month ago. God, I had no idea how terrible my ground game was until I started BJJ.
Scoring in BJJ is of course different from Judo, but a lot of principles are the same.
It won't necessarily make you a much better judoka, as in judo you can just avoid going to the ground, but BJJ will make you feel much more confident going to the ground. Simply you'll have a much better idea of how to use your body and weight to control the opponent.
Stuff like attacks from side guard, full guard could be very useful.

 

[Uchi Mata]

SAMBO ground work has its differences from judo.
Different submissions are allowed - namely compression locks, ankle locks, kneebars, but no chokes (in Sport Sambo) - and the pin or osae komi can be gained from inside your opponent's guard or half guard.

Still, SAMBO groundwork is much more similar to Judo than BJJ is. The positional hierarchy of BJJ and it's scoring system does not really translate into judo. SAMBO does, for the most part.
Because of that, I'd still think that a very strong SAMBO training will compliment your judo better than BJJ training.
Not only because of the basic fundamental similarities, but also because pretty much all you are going to learn in BJJ, is ground work. From sambo training you can also get some nice grip/throw/reaps/sweeps variations in the stand-up department.

But all in all, don't expect to have the level of ne waza (ground game) a BJJ blackbelt or a SAMBO world champion (or a judo world champion) if you are a white/yellow/orange belt in Judo. Not going to happen.

Good post. Judo and Sambo base their ground game on pins and attacking quick submissions, once you're in a dominant position you're winning by pin so there's not much reason to progress to a sub as in BJJ. Obviously Sambo has the leg locks, but it's going to be very different than a BJJ style leg locking game (again because ground time is limited in a way that doesn't exist in BJJ).

 

[cjd]

Being involved in local judo clubs, I have noticed the ground/submission game to be limited. I feel like I don't have any good submission/ground route that I can transition. All I got is side control and some neck submissions. Aside from that, I am useless and open to all kind of locks/holds.


I am wondering if training in Sambo can compliment my judo or will it get in the way of my judo training? (I know sambo comes from judo but still wondering if the training protocols conflict with one another?)

I'm not sure how much Sambo will help you with Judo Newaza. There are no chokes, and you don't need to pass to pin. So pretty much what happens is you attack armbars against the turtle. This could be a good skill to develop, I guess?

 

[selfcritical]

I'm not sure how much Sambo will help you with Judo Newaza. There are no chokes, and you don't need to pass to pin. So pretty much what happens is you attack armbars against the turtle. This could be a good skill to develop, I guess?

Armbars against the turtle is a pretty high percentage judo strategy. And extra time working pins never hurts.

 

[selfcritical]

Being involved in local judo clubs, I have noticed the ground/submission game to be limited. I feel like I don't have any good submission/ground route that I can transition. All I got is side control and some neck submissions. Aside from that, I am useless and open to all kind of locks/holds.


I am wondering if training in Sambo can compliment my judo or will it get in the way of my judo training? (I know sambo comes from judo but still wondering if the training protocols conflict with one another?)

Most importantly....is there a decent Sambo club nearby you?

 

[Gabicho]

I'm not sure how much Sambo will help you with Judo Newaza. There are no chokes, and you don't need to pass to pin. So pretty much what happens is you attack armbars against the turtle. This could be a good skill to develop, I guess?

It is a very good skill to develop, but it indeed is not that much of a very good reason for doing SAMBO instead of judo. Since it's a different ruleset, SAMBO does not bring any magic nor witchcraft into the judo ground game, because most of it's techniques are illegal or don't score.

All in all, BJJ is a super refined sport for ground fighting. You will have to adapt what you get out of it into the Judo ruleset, but there is a lot of awesomeness to be had.

However, all that berimbolo, donkey guard, worm guard, guard pulls and "pulling the head down" to finish a triangle, and specially and particularly, the slow pace and extended periods of time on the ground, tend to be useless outside of a BJJ ruleset.

In the end it comes down to the instructor. Some SAMBO coaches are just awesome on the ground and kill it with armbars. Some will go the 90% stand up route.
Same for BJJ coaches - some have judo experience, and some only care about doing 50/50 heelhooks.

Try them all!

 

[selfcritical]

It is a very good skill to develop, but it indeed is not that much of a very good reason for doing SAMBO instead of judo. Since it's a different ruleset, SAMBO does not bring any magic nor witchcraft into the judo ground game, because most of it's techniques are illegal or don't score.

All in all, BJJ is a super refined sport for ground fighting. You will have to adapt what you get out of it into the Judo ruleset, but there is a lot of awesomeness to be had.

However, all that berimbolo, donkey guard, worm guard, guard pulls and "pulling the head down" to finish a triangle, and specially and particularly, the slow pace and extended periods of time on the ground, tend to be useless outside of a BJJ ruleset.

In the end it comes down to the instructor. Some SAMBO coaches are just awesome on the ground and kill it with armbars. Some will go the 90% stand up route.
Same for BJJ coaches - some have judo experience, and some only care about doing 50/50 heelhooks.

Try them all!

Just to slightly disagree.....most of the techniques from sambo and judo matwork will overlap, just not the submissions. The vast majority of groundwork in both is pins, pin breaks, and turtle breakdowns. Submissions in both will be based on likely actions to take in order to break a pin. There's a reason that a large number of sambists compete in judo and have no problems.


The highest percentage winning strategy for sambo is "Throw guy- threaten pin- attack arm lock while person dynamically explodes out of pin"

That works pretty well in judo.

 

[Spoonman7]

Sambo has a different focus than other arts but one advantage is that with Sambo, you cnan develop quick transitions into submissions just based on the rules, of course there is a much larger lock attack focus than other arts. But it offers quite a bit.

 

[Calibur]

I cross trained in Sambo off and on for a few years.

Honestly, more time was spent mastering throws and trips then anything else. I mean, yeah they do leg locks and stuff, but it always felt like a bonus, and the ground game involved mostly around either breaking down the turtle or getting a super fast sub off of a throw that didn't land clean (armbar or knee bar)

Just my experience. I don't look at it as more expansive form of ground grappling. Like a lot of people here, I look at it as a rougher form of Judo.

 

[devante]

I cross trained in Sambo off and on for a few years.

Honestly, more time was spent mastering throws and trips then anything else. I mean, yeah they do leg locks and stuff, but it always felt like a bonus, and the ground game involved mostly around either breaking down the turtle or getting a super fast sub off of a throw that didn't land clean (armbar or knee bar)

Just my experience. I don't look at it as more expansive form of ground grappling. Like a lot of people here, I look at it as a rougher form of Judo.

my experience exactly...

 

[Chungungo]

I cross trained in Sambo off and on for a few years.

Honestly, more time was spent mastering throws and trips then anything else. I mean, yeah they do leg locks and stuff, but it always felt like a bonus, and the ground game involved mostly around either breaking down the turtle or getting a super fast sub off of a throw that didn't land clean (armbar or knee bar)

Just my experience. I don't look at it as more expansive form of ground grappling. Like a lot of people here, I look at it as a rougher form of Judo.

Haven´t done Sambo yet but logic tells me I´d find out that , when I did BJJ and Grappling what I brought to Judo was mostly guard attacks and stuff from half guard that is very useful in tournaments as you can escape an osaekomi getting into toketá .

Remember many people were expecting Fedor would submit someone with a leg lock