Thread title says it all. In your opinions, how important is it for a fighter to be able to go from orthodox to southpaw, or vice versa, and still be very good in their off-stance? Is it worth investing time perfecting the jab on both sides, as well as other punches and combos? I know as much as I can I like to try to switch back and forth for Muay Thai. How about you guys?
How important is it to be able to switch stances well?
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Discipulus
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Not of principle importance, in my opinion. There are certain movements, kicks and such in Muay Thai that will require you to stand switchfooted, but if you learn those movements specifically as they are, and how to safely return to your original stance, I say that's good enough. Learning things in the opposite stance is not easy. It seems that defense just about always suffers.
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Most of the time, no. A lot of people tend to not even move and punch well in their natural stance, so switching is generally a no-no. But if you can train and pull it off, it is a lethal weapon to have.
These two guys are renowned for their footworks. Both of them are able to change stances on the fly to create misdirections and counter opportunities. Note that they never stay in the opposite stance for too long, just enough to bait and confuse the other guy. Right now i'm incorporating Jersey Joe's cakewalk too. It is some really fun shits.
These two guys are renowned for their footworks. Both of them are able to change stances on the fly to create misdirections and counter opportunities. Note that they never stay in the opposite stance for too long, just enough to bait and confuse the other guy. Right now i'm incorporating Jersey Joe's cakewalk too. It is some really fun shits.
How so?
Zombles
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typically they don't spend the time needed to learn either stance well (that is, twice as much time). they are a bad southpaw fighter and a bad orthodox fighter rather than being competent at one.
unless you're Willie Pep it's prolly not gonna work out for you. wouldn't recommend looking at it until you have years of gym time behind you and even then it's usually just better to excel at one. don't get me wrong, in muay thai switch kicks and advancing attacks where you plant the leg you just threw forward ergo switching on the fly are part and parcel of the art, but true stance switching is usually a waste of time. not for everyone, but even great strikers like Donaire and Hagler and Silva perform far worse than they normally do when they switch stances.
unless you're Willie Pep it's prolly not gonna work out for you. wouldn't recommend looking at it until you have years of gym time behind you and even then it's usually just better to excel at one. don't get me wrong, in muay thai switch kicks and advancing attacks where you plant the leg you just threw forward ergo switching on the fly are part and parcel of the art, but true stance switching is usually a waste of time. not for everyone, but even great strikers like Donaire and Hagler and Silva perform far worse than they normally do when they switch stances.
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I think beginners spend way too much time switching back and forth. I've found that it is not so much they want to get good on both sides, rather they are not comfortable in either stance. Somehow in their mind when they get uncomfortable they just switch, thinking it will change.
I tell the beginners that come into our gym to pick a side and stay with it until they are very comfortable in that stance. You are getting punched in the face...which makes most people uncomfortable no matter if you stand orthodox or southpaw.
Pick a side...stay with it.
I tell the beginners that come into our gym to pick a side and stay with it until they are very comfortable in that stance. You are getting punched in the face...which makes most people uncomfortable no matter if you stand orthodox or southpaw.
Pick a side...stay with it.
Zombles
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even at that point why develop what's probably going to be a mediocre alternate stance game when you can refine and perfect your normal stance. takes a lifetime to learn one.
in MMA a lot of wrestlers stand southpaw because that is the more conventional stance in wrestling, but fighting as a converted fighter is far different than stance switching. Machida, Anderson Silva, Hagler, De La Hoya, Cotto, Andre Ward, too many Thai guys to list, a lot of guys fight with their dominant hand forward regardless of whether they are left or right handed.
but not a lot of guys master some ancient eastern art of effortlessly flowing between stances and leaving your opponents hopelessly confused. you get to a certain level and guys aren't going to go into mental shock when they see you switch, they're probably just going to beat the shit out of you as they know how to fight both orthodox and southpaw fighters and you're trying to incorporate a stance you've spent a fraction of your total gym time in.
moreover as above bro said it can be a mental crutch. "oh well i'm not doing well in this stance let me switch to the other and see if i do better" "nope not working here lemme try the other" rather than actually diagramming what's going wrong in the ring and coming up with a real adjustment.
like i said there are certain techniques where you need to switch to execute, switch kicks + kicking combinations most commonly, + Pep made a career out of circling either way and leaping in with whatever hand was back whenever he had an angle, but unless you're executing one there's very little reason to switch.
in MMA a lot of wrestlers stand southpaw because that is the more conventional stance in wrestling, but fighting as a converted fighter is far different than stance switching. Machida, Anderson Silva, Hagler, De La Hoya, Cotto, Andre Ward, too many Thai guys to list, a lot of guys fight with their dominant hand forward regardless of whether they are left or right handed.
but not a lot of guys master some ancient eastern art of effortlessly flowing between stances and leaving your opponents hopelessly confused. you get to a certain level and guys aren't going to go into mental shock when they see you switch, they're probably just going to beat the shit out of you as they know how to fight both orthodox and southpaw fighters and you're trying to incorporate a stance you've spent a fraction of your total gym time in.
moreover as above bro said it can be a mental crutch. "oh well i'm not doing well in this stance let me switch to the other and see if i do better" "nope not working here lemme try the other" rather than actually diagramming what's going wrong in the ring and coming up with a real adjustment.
like i said there are certain techniques where you need to switch to execute, switch kicks + kicking combinations most commonly, + Pep made a career out of circling either way and leaping in with whatever hand was back whenever he had an angle, but unless you're executing one there's very little reason to switch.
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How many high level fighters regularly switch stances and are effective with it? How many fighters are confused by an opponent who switches stances? Not very many.
By a certain level, most fighters aren't completely at all a loss just because an opponent switched his lead foot. Pick a side and stick with it.
By a certain level, most fighters aren't completely at all a loss just because an opponent switched his lead foot. Pick a side and stick with it.
Disagree with previous posts.
I think having the ability to be able to switch stances and throw off your rhythm and timing so that your opponent can not read you as easily is HUGE. Look at Dominick Cruz for example, try getting his timing and rhythm down, you will won't. Just because not that many guys switch stances, does not mean that it is not extremely effective. Think outside the box people.
I think having the ability to be able to switch stances and throw off your rhythm and timing so that your opponent can not read you as easily is HUGE. Look at Dominick Cruz for example, try getting his timing and rhythm down, you will won't. Just because not that many guys switch stances, does not mean that it is not extremely effective. Think outside the box people.
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Nobody said it is not effective. But it is very hard to implement. I mean if the regular guys cannot even move in their natural stance properly without crossing their legs or being imbalance then teaching them to switch stances is only going to mess things up further. It is a very advanced thing to do so most of the time people dont even bother with it
DivineComedy
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Just to reinforce the general opinion.
It's not important at all. Skill at combat sports is partly a matter of repetition. And switching stances requires repetition in both stances for any single technique to be good. So if you've one hour to train and you spend half an hour on your jab in orthodox and half an hour on your jab in southpaw, both of your jabs will stink. Multiply that by the all of the techniques you need to know to be a good fighter and you'll have arsenal of weak techniques with both stances.
Spend the whole hour in one stance and get a good jab instead of 2 weak ones.
Of course, if you've got 10 hours a day to train every day then by all means spend 5 hours on each stance but most people don't have that kind of time so efficiency and effectiveness suggest that you pick a side and get as good as you can with it.
It's not important at all. Skill at combat sports is partly a matter of repetition. And switching stances requires repetition in both stances for any single technique to be good. So if you've one hour to train and you spend half an hour on your jab in orthodox and half an hour on your jab in southpaw, both of your jabs will stink. Multiply that by the all of the techniques you need to know to be a good fighter and you'll have arsenal of weak techniques with both stances.
Spend the whole hour in one stance and get a good jab instead of 2 weak ones.
Of course, if you've got 10 hours a day to train every day then by all means spend 5 hours on each stance but most people don't have that kind of time so efficiency and effectiveness suggest that you pick a side and get as good as you can with it.
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It is important for self defense, unless you can control what side someone comes at you from. Even odd stances are important, like side stance, because that might just be how you are standing.
If it takes you 10 years to get good at it, that's fine. What else were you going to do with your time?
If it takes you 10 years to get good at it, that's fine. What else were you going to do with your time?
Noblet10
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There are many advantages to being able to switch stances. Of course it's going to be hard to learn in both stances, but I don't see why everyone is so against it. If anything, you'd learn techniques in both stances quicker if you switch often from the get go. The thing is you really must put time and effort and practicing both. If you only go orthodox in practice, trying southpaw in sparring might be pretty stupid. If you practice both, then you might be able to play the angles of your opponent to your advantage.
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I'm not quite sure if you have actually read the thread, because there are plenty of reasons stated in here why you should not attempt to try to learn stance switching in general, and especially at the beginner's level. And even when you are able to switch stance, there's another can of worm waiting and that's how to use your switch hitting effectively without looking like a total noob at it. Telling someone who is new to try to switch hitting is like telling someone to try and run with a scissors in their hand. It will not end well.
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I don't think people are outright against it. I think it's more of a time-benefit analysis. If you've got the time, why not. But most people simply don't have the time to do it well.
I do somewhat agree with SummerStriker about the need in a self-defense situation where you can't know where trouble will come from - but even then you might just be better off learning to defend all sides from the same general stance.
But no one knows how much time you have to train except you, so make the decision that maximizes your abilities.
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i am a southpaw and i've been goofing around with the orthodox stance very recently. it started out from mitt training. whenever i do mitt training for a someone (all but one of them were ortho), i would stand ortho as well (just felt easier to train someone who's also ortho) and i sort of developed the stance and movement from it. from there, i horsed around with it doing some shadowboxing, speed bag and havy bag sessions. it wasn't as awkward as i thought it'd be but it was just from goofing around. haven't tried doing a whole mitt session with it but that'll be the next step.
but i am not advocating the idea of training with both stances (unless are you gifted). i am just messing around with it for shits and giggles. when i spar, it's southpaw. it's best to learn as much as possible from one stance and be as good with it as you can be.
but i am not advocating the idea of training with both stances (unless are you gifted). i am just messing around with it for shits and giggles. when i spar, it's southpaw. it's best to learn as much as possible from one stance and be as good with it as you can be.
