How good is the ground skill of a judo black belt?
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US judo black belt - meh
European or Asian Judo black belt is much better on the ground IMO.
Niether would fare well against a legit BJJ black belt.
European or Asian Judo black belt is much better on the ground IMO.
Niether would fare well against a legit BJJ black belt.
Diablo Ryu**
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Not so good.
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How good is a BJJ black belt?
There aren't strict guidelines for belt requirements, so there will be differences in new black belts, especially from different academies or associations.
In the same way Judo black belts have varying levels of skill in newaza.
I have rolled with several Judo black belts whose skills range from white belts to purple. However I am sure there will be some Judo black belts out there who will have newaza comparable to that of a BJJ black belt.
There aren't strict guidelines for belt requirements, so there will be differences in new black belts, especially from different academies or associations.
In the same way Judo black belts have varying levels of skill in newaza.
I have rolled with several Judo black belts whose skills range from white belts to purple. However I am sure there will be some Judo black belts out there who will have newaza comparable to that of a BJJ black belt.
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It depends, judo groundwork is different from BJJ groundwork, a decent judo competitor will have good side control, N/S and mount and he will have decent armbars and chokes from different positions.
What a judoka will lack however is guard passing and guard retention, so i would say a good judoka is a 3 stripe white belt while on guard but will feel considerably stronger in side or mount.
What a judoka will lack however is guard passing and guard retention, so i would say a good judoka is a 3 stripe white belt while on guard but will feel considerably stronger in side or mount.
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I think the better analogy is.
How good is a BJJ black belt on the feet? it ranges of course from white belt to Claudio Calassans and Travis Stevens.
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I always thought this to be a silly question.
There are literally thousands and thousands of judo black belts in the world... Which one are you talking about? It's like asking how good a college wrestler is at the ground portion of wrestling... Some are very good... Some are not.
This judo bb is excellent on the ground
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=st622kos_bM
So are all these guys
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOz7NWtmiDw
But really. It depends on who you're talking about. Average recreational sport bbs are on the average not so great on the ground. On the world level there are several guys who are great on the ground.
There are literally thousands and thousands of judo black belts in the world... Which one are you talking about? It's like asking how good a college wrestler is at the ground portion of wrestling... Some are very good... Some are not.
This judo bb is excellent on the ground
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=st622kos_bM
So are all these guys
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOz7NWtmiDw
But really. It depends on who you're talking about. Average recreational sport bbs are on the average not so great on the ground. On the world level there are several guys who are great on the ground.
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I was just saying there is no standard. But yes, your analogy is better.
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There is a huge range of skill with regards to newaza. Rules and officiating have dictated this.
There are so many different styles, just like in MMA. Some guys want to get the fight to the ground, even by fighting from their backs, some will have crushing top games and look for pins, some don't want to be on the ground at all and are good at stalling and getting back to their feet. The combinations are endless.
You have to realise the difference in ground games in judo and BJJ too. In BJJ, of course BJJ guys will have the advantage, with lots more time to work funky guards, use leg locks and other forbidden judo techniques, etc.
If they're both engaging on the ground in judo competition, the judoka will have the luxury of winning by pin or turtling, standing and more easily avoiding the ground if he chooses to do so.
There are so many different styles, just like in MMA. Some guys want to get the fight to the ground, even by fighting from their backs, some will have crushing top games and look for pins, some don't want to be on the ground at all and are good at stalling and getting back to their feet. The combinations are endless.
You have to realise the difference in ground games in judo and BJJ too. In BJJ, of course BJJ guys will have the advantage, with lots more time to work funky guards, use leg locks and other forbidden judo techniques, etc.
If they're both engaging on the ground in judo competition, the judoka will have the luxury of winning by pin or turtling, standing and more easily avoiding the ground if he chooses to do so.
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Fuck around in my club on a Saturday and you might leave limping.
It depends on the person. Different clubs teach differently. While I haven't trained BJJ formally I have gone to a lot of No Gi open mats, sub grappling competitions, and a few guys in my club cross train. Roger Gracie was a visitor and Xande Ribiero was a regular at Judo class. I have visited places like Cobrahina and Nino Schembri for open mat and have never gotten smashed by students at BJJ Clubs. Probably my worst was getting wrecked by an instructor years ago in a friendly but the guy has won or placed at comps like Mundials and the Gracie Nationals.
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Not all Judo BBs are created equal. Even in judo there is a huge skill disparity. No shit at some clubs you can put your time in and earn points doing kata and reffing to earn your Shodan, others are more competition based, and the rest are a mix.
A wide range in newaza abilities with the older guys having better guard passing skill than the young guys.
Theoretically you could be an amazing judoka and know very little ground work. I am sure that there must be black belts who are excellent at throwing and just turtle on the ground to get the match stood up again.
If they changed the rules so that taking the back with the hooks in as a pin then I am guessing that you would have better guard retention, use or guard and half guard as well as passing those guards.
Theoretically you could be an amazing judoka and know very little ground work. I am sure that there must be black belts who are excellent at throwing and just turtle on the ground to get the match stood up again.
If they changed the rules so that taking the back with the hooks in as a pin then I am guessing that you would have better guard retention, use or guard and half guard as well as passing those guards.
Depends.
Is his/her black belt earned through competition or does he/she do it for recreation? What type of judo is he/she learning (kosen focuses a lot on the ground)?
Most BJJ gyms treat black belt judokas like blue belts in my experience. I've personally grappled with some that felt a lot worse but I've also been submitted/pinned a lot of times by good ones.
Is his/her black belt earned through competition or does he/she do it for recreation? What type of judo is he/she learning (kosen focuses a lot on the ground)?
Most BJJ gyms treat black belt judokas like blue belts in my experience. I've personally grappled with some that felt a lot worse but I've also been submitted/pinned a lot of times by good ones.
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Greatly depends on the black belt.
the difference in skill level from the lower skilled judo black belts to the competition judo black belts is greater than the same difference in bjj.
Then comes the stylistic choices of each black belt in a sport where the rules on the feet and on the ground are basically two different games.
Then comes the definition of the ground game. are u talking ground game in terms of bjj rules or judo rules? Two different animals.
I've trained with judo black belts with great ground games, although they also were trained in bjj.
Then I have trained with black belts who's ground games are what I would say is blue belt level.
the difference in skill level from the lower skilled judo black belts to the competition judo black belts is greater than the same difference in bjj.
Then comes the stylistic choices of each black belt in a sport where the rules on the feet and on the ground are basically two different games.
Then comes the definition of the ground game. are u talking ground game in terms of bjj rules or judo rules? Two different animals.
I've trained with judo black belts with great ground games, although they also were trained in bjj.
Then I have trained with black belts who's ground games are what I would say is blue belt level.
The relative skill of *any* martial artist depends on a confluence of multiple factors that can be broadly categoried thus:
1) THE INSTRUCTOR:
How accomplished/well-rounded is he in terms of his technical skill and base knowledge?
Does he know well enough to identify a students' strengths and weaknesses, and tailor his instruction in a way that best plays up to them?
Is he even legit, or is he some schmuck pretender trying to cash in on the style du jour (which is currently BJJ/MMA) by watching training DVDs and teaching it half-assed to people who don't know better?
Is his teaching skill commensurate with his fighting skill? The latter is no guarantee of the former.
Does he run a dojo, or a belt mill whose #1 criteria for rank advancement = the check for the test fee doesn't bounce?
THE STUDENT:
How well does he absorb training and translate it to skill?
Does he have sincere enthusiasm for training? Or does drop in sporadically so he can tell people he trains without (technically) lying?
1) THE INSTRUCTOR:
How accomplished/well-rounded is he in terms of his technical skill and base knowledge?
Does he know well enough to identify a students' strengths and weaknesses, and tailor his instruction in a way that best plays up to them?
Is he even legit, or is he some schmuck pretender trying to cash in on the style du jour (which is currently BJJ/MMA) by watching training DVDs and teaching it half-assed to people who don't know better?
Is his teaching skill commensurate with his fighting skill? The latter is no guarantee of the former.
Does he run a dojo, or a belt mill whose #1 criteria for rank advancement = the check for the test fee doesn't bounce?
THE STUDENT:
How well does he absorb training and translate it to skill?
Does he have sincere enthusiasm for training? Or does drop in sporadically so he can tell people he trains without (technically) lying?
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dumb question; it depends. ive rolled with a few that knew seemed to know nothing other than flopping to their belly and grabbing their lapels and some that destroyed me on the ground with ease.
jackson001
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I'm a judo brown belt, a freshly minted sankyu. I used to train BJJ for a while, and I have some buddies that stil do. They compare my top game to that of a new to mid blue. My guard is laughable, in my opinion, though.
My judo club has a decent focus on ne waza and we do it every practice.
My judo club has a decent focus on ne waza and we do it every practice.
Personally, my experiences and observations have led me to the conclusion that belts don't mean shit.
Once upon a time, if someone could honestly say "I have a [?]-Degree black belt in [whatever]," it usually meant "this is *NOT* a guy you wanna fuck with."
In my lifetime, martial arts training has soared in popularity; this has been attended by gyms and dojos proliferating like a bacterial culture in a petri dish. That, in turn, has led to increases in the sheer number of schools owned by clowns who've conferred the honorific of "Master" upon themselves, when in fact they have no business leading a goddamned Tae Bo class for doddering old feebs in an assisted-living commmunity.
*NOW* when someone tells me they're a black belt, that tells me zippy, save for that they have a black strip of cloth tied to their waist.
Once upon a time, if someone could honestly say "I have a [?]-Degree black belt in [whatever]," it usually meant "this is *NOT* a guy you wanna fuck with."
In my lifetime, martial arts training has soared in popularity; this has been attended by gyms and dojos proliferating like a bacterial culture in a petri dish. That, in turn, has led to increases in the sheer number of schools owned by clowns who've conferred the honorific of "Master" upon themselves, when in fact they have no business leading a goddamned Tae Bo class for doddering old feebs in an assisted-living commmunity.
*NOW* when someone tells me they're a black belt, that tells me zippy, save for that they have a black strip of cloth tied to their waist.
