Holder & Co. on guns

[lowkick13]

I didn't say anything about America.

Ok fair enough. I thought you were trying to create some shitty hyperbolic parallel to Nazi German and the US in the year 2014.

 

[Scrody]

Ok fair enough. I thought you were trying to create some shitty hyperbolic parallel to Nazi German and the US in the year 2014.

No just elaborating on facts. Pro gun people act like Hitler confiscated all firearms, while the antis point out that he was actually pretty pro gun, which is true, but he still denied jews from having them. So he was pro gun, as long as the people that had em weren't jews lol

 

[lowkick13]

No just elaborating on facts. Pro gun people act like Hitler confiscated all firearms, while the antis point out that he was actually pretty pro gun, which is true, but he still denied jews from having them. So he was pro gun, as long as the people that had em weren't jews lol

So whos right here?

 

[Scrody]

So whos right here?

Hitler was definitely a fan of gun control, he just didn't apply it to everyone.

 

[Jack V Savage]

are these real quotes?

The Reno one is not (obviously). The Hitler one is (surprisingly, given almost any time anyone quotes Hitler, it's a fabrication and almost any time a right-winger quotes anyone it's fake--weird that you don't see that from the left). He was referring to people that have been conquered. Obviously if one nation defeats another and occupies its territory, it's not going to want an armed populace. It's not about domestic law.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

The Reno one is not

Actually, I think you're a bit confused. By all accounts, the Reno quote stated earlier seems to be an actual quote. You're thinking of another anti-gun quote that is incorrectly attributed to Mrs. Reno:

"The most effective means of fighting crime in the United States is to outlaw the possession of any type of firearm by the civilian populace."
---Falsely attributed to Janet Reno, then-state attorney for Dade County, speech to Ft. Lauderdale, Florida B'nai B'rith gathering, ca.1991.

Glad I could clear that up.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Actually, I think you're a bit confused. By all accounts, the Reno quote stated earlier seems to be an actual quote. You're thinking of another anti-gun quote that is incorrectly attributed to Mrs. Reno:

No, the fabricated quote of Reno's that Robert posted has been going around. The only source is one guy who said in 1993 that he remembered hearing her say that (actually he appears to have been paraphrasing) 9 years earlier. She corrected the record on it.

Glad I could clear that up.

Glad I could further clear it up. I assume that you will do the honorable thing and admit your error, right?

"I was there, and I can promise that Janet Reno didn't say what gun nuts are saying she said"
--Thomas Jefferson

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

No, the fabricated quote of Reno's that Robert posted has been going around. The only source is one guy who said in 1993 that he remembered hearing her say that (actually he appears to have been paraphrasing) 9 years earlier. She corrected the record on it.

Again, I think you're confusing quotes. Do you care to source any of the claims you made?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Again, I think you're confusing quotes. Do you care to source any of the claims you made?

I did a Google search.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcbogus.html

According to editorials by Martin Dyckman, published in the St. Petersburg Times May 2 and May 28, 1995, the "quote" appears to have originated with an affidavit written by Fred Diamond of Miami, FL who claimed to have heard Reno speak in Coral Gables (not Fort Lauderdale) "on or about November 1, 1984". According to Diamond's affidavit, "Janet Reno told the members of our group assembled, that waiting periods were only a step, that registration was only a step, and further that the prohibition of the private ownership of firearms was the only ultimate solution to controlling crime. I was shocked and appalled to hear her, an elected public official sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, espouse and advocate a position that would effectively repeal the guarantees of the Second Amendment."

Early in 1993, after Reno was nominated to be Attorney General, Diamond talked to Marion Hammer, then the National Rifle Association's Florida lobbyist, and NRA sent him affidavits to sign. Diamond says he rejected their first draft. Subsequently, Hammer's newsletter, Florida Firing Line, published an article on Reno in March 1993, including almost word for word the key passage from Diamond's affidavit about what Reno allegedly said, but the newsletter put the speech in 1991, not 1984. Diamond didn't sign the affidavit (with the correct year) until June 17, 1993, after Reno had already been confirmed.

Reno has been questioned about the "quote" and denies having said it, either in 1991 or 1984. A spokesman for the Justice Department, Bert Brandenburg, told the New York Times syndicate: "The assertion is untrue and the attorney general has never made such a statement" (Cleveland Plain Dealer, May 2, 1995). The Reno "quote" has appeared in print elsewhere, including National Review on May 29, 1995 as part of an article by Alan W. Bock about the militia movement; and was reprinted in a Guns and Ammo editorial by Ed Moats on concealed carry in October of 1996.

So can you now cite when and where she said what you and Robert claim she said? Didn't think so. And I don't expect you to be honorable enough to admit that it's not an accurate quotation, so don't worry about disappointing me.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'd say the problem here is advocating propaganda through the media to influence the nation politically. The guy doesn't know you can't speak like that? Oh wait, I guess he can since he's AG and I'm in no position to do anything about it.

 

[mantis_fist]

Criminals will always have a way to access a weapon. Plus, you want to have a way to fight the government...

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

I did a Google search.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcbogus.html



So can you now cite when and where she said what you and Robert claim she said? Didn't think so. And I don't expect you to be honorable enough to admit that it's not an accurate quotation, so don't worry about disappointing me.

It's certainly possible it could be misquoted. I'll have to dig deeper later, I'm needed at the office. Keep in made Jack, only those with an ego or an agenda can never admit to being wrong. :icon_chee

 

[Jack V Savage]

It's certainly possible it could be misquoted. I'll have to dig deeper later, I'm needed at the office. Keep in made Jack, only those with an ego or an agenda can never admit to being wrong. :icon_chee

It looks pretty clear that it is. The issues, are, in no particular order:

1. The original source doesn't claim that it is a direct quote.
2. The source has no credibility.
3. The source claims to be paraphrasing something he heard nine years earlier.
4. The alleged speaker denies making the comments attributed to her.
5. The alleged speaker has a long history of public comments with a very clearly expressed stance on this particular issue, but there is no record of her holding the positions the source claims that she expressed or making any similar quotes. She does have a history of supporting licensing, but nothing that indicates that she considers outright banning of guns to be her goal.

I would also add the long history of right-wingers making up quotes to discredit people or ideas, and the fact that the quote just doesn't sound realistic. That might not go far with you, but it did get my suspicion up enough to look it up.

Weighing against all that, we have:

1. Gun manufacturers, Republican politicians/fundraisers, and various kooks in the WR and around the Internet really want her to have said that.

I realize that the two of us will look at those two lists and reach different conclusions, but really, it's not a tough call. You only make your own arguments look worse by lying.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Fake talk is cheap. Were there any actual gun control actions by Janet, dammit.

 

[oldshadow]

Fake talk is cheap. Were there any actual gun control actions by Janet, dammit.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Janet_Reno_Gun_Control.htm

 

[usmctanker242]

No one's taking anyone's guns. However, guns are being used in more and more mass killings and crimes in general. BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE NRA!!

And "stand your ground" here in Florida has already shown itself to be a perversion of a law; just ask Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis. Wait, you can't, because their dead. Were they killed by "criminals who would have guns if there were more laws anyway"? Nope. They were killed by lawful gun owners: one a cop wannabe, and the other who didn't like being "disrespected".

So dead people are inherently, 100% correct? OK, good story.