"Good gym fighters are not always good ring fighters"

[fightingrabbit]

Vice versa

I always recall hearing this saying, and i think back to when i watched a video of Edwin Valero sparring Morales. He was calm and collected, moving well, throwing smart punches, countering and boxing beautifully in general. I remember thinking "Man Valero is fucking good. He could take anybody."

Sparring



Then shortly afterwards, i watched some of his actual fights, and he did not look anything close to the Valero in sparring. There was no calm and collected. Instead he looked tense and skittish, almost like he was fighting at too high of a tempo than he could manage. Was making exaggerated movements, and throwing sometimes wild unintelligent punches. The transformation from slick boxer to puncher was drastic. Like he couldn't have boxed if he wanted to. It was quite a reality check.

Fight


Recently i was reading Dundees book, which made me think back to this topic once again. He mentioned that Ali was one of the worst gym fighters he had ever seen. It always looked like his sparring partners were beating the crap out of him and Ali would just let them. In this sparring video, Ali would just practice clinching and spoiling for a whole round.

Sparring


Then when it came fight time. Ali looked just as calm under the duress of the fight as he did in sparring. I just thought the contrast between the two fighters was interesting.

Fight

 

[Marc A]

Great topic.. I wonder what that makes it so ... wrestling is very different. We had to perform our best during "sparing" called wrestle offs just to be on the team. and that was on competition per competition basis..

Why does boxing differ so much. that this can happen?

 

[Minatour MMA]

I know a BJJ guy who could tap most people in the gym but never won a match ever in a tournament (and no the gym didnt suck).

 

[daemonarch]

Hm. What is a "gym fighter" anyway ?

Yes, I have seen many fighters that are absolute beasts on training, hitting pads, bag, sparring, running, jumping and whatnot, but once put to the test in real fight they lose even against seemingly not so good opponents.

However I don't agree on taking Valero as example of fighter who underperformed in actual fights compared to training in the gym, however tense he may seem to be in his fights.

You just don't call underperformer a guy with 27-0-27 record nor he ever got any actual "reality check" either, considering he never get hit that much. How could he when most of his fights lasted less than a round?

 

[Minowafanatic]

Hm. What is a "gym fighter" anyway ?

Yes, I have seen many fighters that are absolute beasts on training, hitting pads, bag, sparring, running, jumping and whatnot, but once put to the test in real fight they lose even against seemingly not so good opponents.

However I don't agree on taking Valero as example of fighter who underperformed in actual fights compared to training in the gym, however tense he may seem to be in his fights.

You just don't call underperformer a guy with 27-0-27 record nor he ever got any actual "reality check" either, considering he never get hit that much. How could he when most of his fights lasted less than a round?

the point is that you can't always predict ring performance based on performance in the gym

 

[daemonarch]

the point is that you can't always predict ring performance based on performance in the gym

And my point is that Valero performed maybe even better in the actual fight then in sparring no matter how tense he might seem to be.

He performed very well in the sparring but was at least as effective in actual fights which, again, make him a bad exempel for a fighter that "is good in the gym but bad in a real fight" - which is what actual thread is titled, and whole point with it, I guess.

And again, he never got any "reality check" as suggested, but rather his opponents got one.

 

[fightingrabbit]

And my point is that Valero performed maybe even better in the actual fight then in sparring no matter how tense he might seem to be.

He performed very well in the sparring but was at least as effective in actual fights which, again, make him a bad exempel for a fighter that "is good in the gym but bad in a real fight" - which is what actual thread is titled, and whole point with it, I guess.

And again, he never got any "reality check" as suggested, but rather his opponents got one.

Not a reality check for Valero, but for me. I just don't believe he performed as well as he could under pressure. If you don't look at his record, but his actual performance it shows. 27-0 may not have been under performing, but its not necessarily performing to the best of your ability either.

Great topic.. I wonder what that makes it so ... wrestling is very different. We had to perform our best during "sparing" called wrestle offs just to be on the team. and that was on competition per competition basis..

Why does boxing differ so much. that this can happen?

I was thinking about this. Theres probably many factors involved, but ring experience, being under the pressure of a crowd, and the need to win are the ones that stood out most to me. People say not to judge a fighter by his sparring. I realized how true that was with the example of Valero. He was two completely different fighters when it came to that respect.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Hm. What is a "gym fighter" anyway ?

Hm. I just notcied the Valero av. Seems i've ticked off a nuthugger.

 

[daemonarch]

Not a reality check for Valero, but for me. I just don't believe he performed as well as he could under pressure. If you don't look at his record, but his actual performance it shows. 27-0 may not have been under performing, but its not necessarily performing to the best of your ability either.

It's not just 27-0 but also all of those 27 fights/victories came by KO, and vast majority of them in RD1.

So I don't say that he was a perfect fighter or fully accomplished either, far from it, but I certainly don't see how much better could he do in those fights he was engaged at least. I'd go ahead and say he was pretty effective.

I see a point with your thread, I only say that Valero is bad example of a boxer who do good in training but bad in actual fight.

 

[daemonarch]

Hm. I just notcied the Valero av. Seems i've ticked off a nuthugger.

Please read my actual post and try to understand it before you label me anything...

 

[Steakeater**]

Valero is not a good example

 

[fightingrabbit]

It's not just 27-0 but also all of those 27 fights/victories came by KO, and vast majority of them in RD1.

So I don't say that he was a perfect fighter or fully accomplished either, far from it, but I certainly don't see how much better could he do in those fights he was engaged at least. I'd go ahead and say he was pretty effective.

I see a point with your thread, I only say that Valero is bad example of a boxer who do good in training but bad in actual fight.

I can understand that. I didn't mean he was a bad fighter when he got in the ring. He just didn't fight as composed as i think he was capable of. I felt he could have fought a million times better if he was the fighter who was sparring Morales. Then not only would he have had his freakish knockout power, but the boxing ability to back it up.

Valero is not a good example

What are other fighters? Valero was the only guy i could personally form an opinion on, based on watching his sparring and bouts.

 

[The President]

Valero is a bad example, he just choose to fight differently when he was under the lights because that's when you don't mess about, if you can get someone out of there, you take the risks to do that. It's not like that in sparring.

I've seen guys look brilliantly in sparring but when they step into a competitive ring, it's a whole different ball game. When your sparring with a guy, you have a sense of security and protection, you know your not going to get knocked out, you know you can try things, the composure comes with the territory. As soon as the first exchange comes in a real fight, you know it's different, your both fighting to get each other out of there, the adrenaline flows and it's those fighters who can keep the composure and turn the fight back into a training exercise that are those great fighters.

You've also got to think that in sparring your usually in big 16oz gloves with head guards on, your not as vulnerable. I also know from personal experience, that although the adrenaline empowers you, it can drain you. In sparring I could go 12 rounds comfortably, but when it came to a 3 round fight, I was blowing out of my arse by the end of the 2nd round.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

Yeah, I don't know if Valero is a good example of this.
Interesting topic.... but, Valero was undefeated. Did he ever struggle with anyone? Sure, but he still never lost a pro fight either.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

We're all saying Valero might not be a good fighter for this...
But, give OP his props - it's a pretty interesting topic.

 

[Sunfish]

We're all saying Valero might not be a good fighter for this...
But, give OP his props - it's a pretty interesting topic.

Valero, Title holder 27-0 27 stoppages.

 

[Minowafanatic]

And my point is that Valero performed maybe even better in the actual fight then in sparring no matter how tense he might seem to be.

He performed very well in the sparring but was at least as effective in actual fights which, again, make him a bad exempel for a fighter that "is good in the gym but bad in a real fight" - which is what actual thread is titled, and whole point with it, I guess.

his style and approach were noticeably different though. The example shows that fighting in the gym =/= actual fighting, even if it's not a great example of good gym fighters =/= good ring fighters

 

[mozfonky]

Ali was a horrible gym fighter for a good part of his career but not always. He got really, really lazy during his comeback and no one could boss him around or push him either. But in his first decade he was a good trainer and was said to have trained as hard as anyone. This "horrible" gym fighter thing wasn't helped by the fact that Ali knew he was better and chose not to abuse sparring partners. Only on rare occasions did he go all out in sparring to prove a point. I heard he beat his own brother badly during sparring to convince him he wasn't a pro boxer, he also beat Larry Holmes badly when he heard that Larry said he was "the real champ" and he also had a gym war with Leroy "Tiger" Williams in an attempt to break him. Anyway, boxing isn't much different than any other sport in this regard, in baseball or whatever they have "clutch" players who perform under pressure very well, and I remember reading a Bill Russel book where he said one of his teamates was extraordinary when he needed to be but mediocre the rest of the time. Bill asked the player about this and the player said he didn't want the constant pressure of playing like that. Then you have the so called "sparring partner syndrome" where a fighter is so used to just being submissive that he never gets out of that mode. But, long story short, the real deal brings out character or lack of character, talented guys can bullshit their way for a long time but the ring brings the truth out of everyone. One of the best fighters I knew just could not handle pressure and deep in his heart he was insecure and incapable, that will out when the pressure hits and it did in his case, he was a 0-2 pro in mma before he quit but knew a wealth of techniques. Personally, I was never a big believer in technique and never learned much in the Grappling part of fighting because of it, they rely way to much on it. A choke or armbar is simple, being in good condition and having heart is much rarer than learning stuff like that.

 

[The Fan Man]

In the late 70s/early 80s in Philly, middleweight Curtis Parker was supposed to be a monster in the gym. He was one of those guys you could throw in the ring with anybody at anytime. Great Philly trainer Slim Johnson said he knocked around Tommy Hearns, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Matthew Saad Muhammad, and Michael Spinks in the gym. Supposedly, he even forced an old Muhammad Ali to box him rather than just clown around. James Shuler was the only guy who Parker wasn't able to look great against in sparring.

He was so willing fucking tough that he would war in the gym which prematurely aged his paying career.



The same thing was said about Elmer "Violent" Ray and Jersey Joe Walcott in the 30s and early 40s. Joe Louis told his people the only guy he wouldn't fight in an exhibition was Elmer Ray because he could only fight like a man possessed. Walcott had a similar reputation as a two-handed smasher but managed to use these gym wars to hone his style and become a great defensive fighter later in his career.

 

[BionicCommando]

Wasn't Oliver McCall known to be a real good gym fighter that (for various reasons) never seemed to translate to the ring? I remember people drooling over footage of him and Tyson sparring.