Gi vs No Gi

[Kyuktooki]

I mostly train in Muay Thai as there is only one decent BJJ school here in Seoul and they happen to train during the hours I work all but one day of the week. I have had the opportunity to train with Gi and with No Gi, and I have to admit I find the Gi really frustrating. I have worked as a bouncer, and been in more than a few bar/street fights. None of these fights have ever gone to the ground. I have only ever seen one street fight go to the ground. I can see why knowing grappling is useful, but using the Gi just seems so unnatural to me. It allows you to do so many things that would simply never happen in any other context than at a BJJ/Judo school or tournament. Its not just the collar chokes, its the way myriad ways in which you can control your opponents body and manoeuvre around that piss me off to.
I can not deny that a small part of it is that blue belts and purple belts have trouble submitting me when I don't where a gi, and they have significantly less trouble when I do. If I had a choice I would never use a Gi. The only submission tournaments I tend to find consistently exciting are No Gi tournaments Unfortunately I don't have a choice. I realize fighting with a gi is more technically involved, and I usually admire technical skill but I just can't bring myself to enjoy it as I do fighting with No Gi.
Why do some people prefer the Gi? Is it because of tradition? Is it because its more technically involved, or because if they have techinical skill it makes it that much easier for them to beat a larger opponent? I imagine some people sympathize with my feelings, although not at the school I train at or there wouldn't be all those "No Gi" shirts running around... does anyone here sympathize? How do you feel about the difference in training? What else do you notice is different?

 

[Gsoares2***]

dont worry, its just cause you suck.

People tend to like what they are good at, you like the fact that you can muscle out and slippery your way out of some submissions when you do no-gi. The fact is the same guys who are submitting you witht he gi, will submit you without the gi. It might take longer because of the wetness factor.. but other than that.. the game is the same.

Train both.

Gi teaches you to slow down, take your time.. set things up right the first time. Attack from different angles, and differents styles of playing.

No-gi is the same but speeds things up, and lessens the control.

Its like someone coming into your thai boxing class and saying, What is this bullshit? GLOVES? who the fuck wears gloves in a street fight!?!?!

 

[Slithers]

I pretty much agree with Gsoares, But I know what you are saying Kyuktooki.

Bite the bullet and do what you know to be right...put the damn gi on.

 

[Foot Lock]

Gi is better supplemented with Judo.
No-Gi is better supplemented with Wrestling.

Pick your poison.

 

[Jiu-Jitsu Cop]

Toss the Gi away. When a person is sweating he can slip out of a hold so the hold must be done correctly. I feel a Gi allows a person to cheat and a obtain a hold that moramlly would not be there.

 

[fullerene]

Defending subs comes easier than applying them. You'll find that in either style after a little bit of training most people won't be able to sub you consistently although many of them you can't sub yourself.

When you train no-gi where this is even more true (defense is easier than offense) right from the start, then there is a tendency to think "subs don't work" and give up on them. The fact is that they do work, they just need time and very precise technique. The gi is a little bit of a crutch, but it's one that let's you have some success and also shows you the potency of the style (by having you get submitted by weaker opponents).

Another factor is that, as a whole, the quality of instruction for gi-based training is better than that for no-gi. There aren't many guys with 30 years experience doing no-gi, but you'll find that with gi-based training. Too often the no-gi instructors are 25 year olds with 10 years of wrestling and one year of jiu-jitsu and, while they can be tough to beat, they can't show you anything b/c unless you share their conditioning and athletecism their style won't work.

 

[Mattt]

It allows you to do so many things that would simply never happen in any other context than at a BJJ/Judo school or tournament.

Don't people wear clothes in Korea? j/k

On a serious note though, people wear trousers/jeans/etc, and at least in the cold climate of the UK (and other places with a similar climate) they wear jackets, sweaters or coats... so Gi grappling is very applicable in this instance.

In fact, one could argue that no gi grappling is not applicable... because on the cold streets of the UK, you will never have a sweaty and slippery opponent, you will always be wearing clothing that can be grabbed, and you will never be sweaty and slippery yourself either.

Besides this though, i think all Judo and Jiu Jitsu guys should start wearing a Gi as i believe it makes you more technical. Rather than just ripping your arm out of a sub, you learn not to put it in a bad position to start with, and so on.

 

[Aesopian]

Do both.

 

[bjjbryce]

Yeah, everybody has vaild points here. Personally, I thought the GI was stupid and only did no GI, but as I trained more, I wanted more out of jiu jitsu. Ever since I started training IN the gi, my No Gi game has gotten sooo much better. The gi forces you be a more analytical fighter, and the fact is, if you look at all of the guys who have won the ADCC in the past few years, they almost ALLL train religiously in the GI. Marcelo garcia is a genius in no gi, and swears his ability is due to the fact that he trains in the gi.


Still, if you just want to be able to handle yourself on the street, no gi will probably take care of you. But, if you are just doing the BJJ for sport think of it like this: Why does the NHL play hockey on Ice, not on rollerblades? BECAUSE IT's TRICKIER. When you play BJJ with the gi, it just adds a whole other dimension of complexity. I train in the GI, not because it makes me better at street fighting. I train in the Gi cause I love training in the GI.

So if you hate the GI, and are just trying to learn to defend yourself, I dont think there's anything wrong with training No Gi for a while at first to learn to ground fight. Then if you decide you love BJJ, you might feel drawn to the gi later.

Good luck training!

 

[mikeffd]

What is your goal exactly? If you merely want to be learn to survive on the ground (for self defense) then it probably doesnt matter what you train in. If you want to compete in grappling tournaments or mma its a different story, but that doesnt sound like something youre interested in.

I prefer the gi because there are so many more techniques availible and somewhat de-emphasized strength and speed. I dont bother getting caught up in arguments as to what is practical, how it applies to street fighting, etc. Its just something I enjoy.

 

[sproggdawg]

Toss the Gi away. When a person is sweating he can slip out of a hold so the hold must be done correctly. I feel a Gi allows a person to cheat and a obtain a hold that moramlly would not be there.

Are you policing a nudist colony:icon_chee ? There are numerous Gi techniques that can be effective using a tshirt or jacket, Gi chokes being one of them. If the person is wearing shorts and a tshirt then you obviously wont have the control you would if they were wearing jeans and a jacket. But there are still offensive options using the clothing. Kyuktooki, You may be frustrated now but thats because(as Gsoares said) you suck. And youre supposed to suck becasue your new at this. No gi is much easier for beginners, especially strong athletes because you can rely more on your strength and quickness to get you out of trouble. Gi is FAR more technical and requires a little more finesse. Think of it this way, if you can escape a sub wearing a gi, you can certainly escape without one. Gi guys win ADCC and other major no gi tournaments because of their technical level. A level only reached by training with the gi. If I were you I would do both. But if you cant then you should choose the gi. Eventually things will start to fall into place for you and you will enjoy it much more.

 

[hayliks]

i prefer gi only because it's so different. people try to say "oh they're similar, you can use techniques interchangibly" or " my gi game helps my no gi game (vice versa)"... what most people dont' realise is HOW different they actually are. The more I train, the more I realise the difference. No gi is still MUCH easier for me, I dominate people a lot more and hold my own even with a lot of black belts in it. In gi, I get mauled by those same black belts. The fact there's fabric you can grab, hold onto, use, prevent techniques, create techniques with is really cool. I think people are idiots when they say that gi is more technical, because it absolutely is not. They are both equally technical in different ways. Sure there may be 10-20 less ways to accomplish a hook flip from butterfly guard between the two, but in no gi it's much more difficult, and if your over/under hooking is poor then you might miss a LOT more opportunities to sweep than otherwise. I can go to just about any school and the country and probably find that 70% of all purple belts I encounter don't do a proper overhook and underhook for no gi. And because they don't do it correctly, they make the assumption that in gi it's easier to slip out of things, gi's more technical, blah blah, instead of accepting the fact that without the gi they have no clue how to do a strong over or underhook.

 

[USAMMAFAN]

Another factor is that, as a whole, the quality of instruction for gi-based training is better than that for no-gi. There aren't many guys with 30 years experience doing no-gi, but you'll find that with gi-based training. Too often the no-gi instructors are 25 year olds with 10 years of wrestling and one year of jiu-jitsu and, while they can be tough to beat, they can't show you anything b/c unless you share their conditioning and athletecism their style won't work.

what he said ^

i think its far more important to get a good instructor and mat time then to worry about gi vs no gi

 

[Zankou]

i prefer gi only because it's so different. people try to say "oh they're similar, you can use techniques interchangibly" or " my gi game helps my no gi game (vice versa)"... what most people dont' realise is HOW different they actually are. The more I train, the more I realise the difference. No gi is still MUCH easier for me, I dominate people a lot more and hold my own even with a lot of black belts in it. In gi, I get mauled by those same black belts. The fact there's fabric you can grab, hold onto, use, prevent techniques, create techniques with is really cool. I think people are idiots when they say that gi is more technical, because it absolutely is not. They are both equally technical in different ways. Sure there may be 10-20 less ways to accomplish a hook flip from butterfly guard between the two, but in no gi it's much more difficult, and if your over/under hooking is poor then you might miss a LOT more opportunities to sweep than otherwise. I can go to just about any school and the country and probably find that 70% of all purple belts I encounter don't do a proper overhook and underhook for no gi. And because they don't do it correctly, they make the assumption that in gi it's easier to slip out of things, gi's more technical, blah blah, instead of accepting the fact that without the gi they have no clue how to do a strong over or underhook.

Yeah, but this is why so many people find it harder to advance technically no-gi. You can get away much better with having lousy technique in no-gi if you are sufficiently physical. Whereas being "non-technical" with a gi on is basically synonymous with getting crushed over and over again -- you can't get away with it nearly as well.

A related point is that sheer physicality ends up being much more of a factor in no-gi ... superior athletes do better, relatively speaking, than with the gi on. Not that I know much about it, but from your posts I have generally assumed that you are far more athletically talented and physically gifted than the average person. Hence I would expect you to fare somewhat better, comparatively speaking, in no-gi and wrestling than in gi BJJ.

As far as realism goes, as others were saying, in "real life" you will usually not be encountering a sweat-soaked man wearing a skintight lycra singlet. People generally wear clothes in real life that make for great grips. MMA clothing has thus somewhat distorted what "real life" fighting is like. IMHO, it is not "unrealistic" to train with somebody wearing a jacket and pants. People commonly wear jackets and pants.

They're both great. People should just train whatever they have fun with, and not worry about what's "proper" or "superior."

 

[krellik]

When I read the tittle to this thread I asumed it would suck...

Instead it is a great thread! I especially liked Hayliks points...

I have myself been pretty strongly against the gi since I have been mostly interested in mma...
But over the last 2-3 months or something I have slowly started to become more and more interested in starting to roll with the gi to... Things change and so does perspectives. And I also think I am starting to get more into the "pure" grappling aspect and not only see everything through the mma filter which also changes my perspectives a bit...

 

[hayliks]

Yeah, but this is why so many people find it harder to advance technically no-gi. You can get away much better with having lousy technique in no-gi if you are sufficiently physical. Whereas being "non-technical" with a gi on is basically synonymous with getting crushed over and over again -- you can't get away with it nearly as well.

A related point is that sheer physicality ends up being much more of a factor in no-gi ... superior athletes do better, relatively speaking, than with the gi on. Not that I know much about it, but from your posts I have generally assumed that you are far more athletically talented and physically gifted than the average person. Hence I would expect you to fare somewhat better, comparatively speaking, in no-gi and wrestling than in gi BJJ.

I think that's a huge misconception that only occurs between people who are probably blue belt level or below. I know a number of guys who aren't extremely athletic, but are extremely technical and give people a much harder time. In no gi, of course it's faster paced but not so much that a huge athletic difference in speed would make or break a match. I don't think it requires a great deal more strength, that's just the same thing as a guy being much stronger in gi overpowering a no gi guy. IF you lack the technical skill to finish an armbar because somebody "slipped out because he was so strong" you only make an excuse for yourself instead of thinking "i missed the armbar because it wasn't tight enough". Of course there are some cases where sweat can make a big deal, but at the same time I wrestled for 8 years, had hundreds and hundreds of wrestling practices where i and my training partner were soaking wet and I could still grab onto things and still hold him down, pin him, etc... You just have to learn how to cope with it technically instead of bitch about it being strength and speed and athletic ability.

 

[knoxpk]

Very good analogy. It is ironic that good no gi grapplers can catch even the sweatiest SOB's due to great skills and proper gripping in no gi.
The grips are different and if you are not used to them then as hayliks said there is an opportunity to chalk it up to being slippery!

 

[2om30]

Gi always no exception...

 

[Zankou]

I think that's a huge misconception that only occurs between people who are probably blue belt level or below. I know a number of guys who aren't extremely athletic, but are extremely technical and give people a much harder time. In no gi, of course it's faster paced but not so much that a huge athletic difference in speed would make or break a match. I don't think it requires a great deal more strength, that's just the same thing as a guy being much stronger in gi overpowering a no gi guy. IF you lack the technical skill to finish an armbar because somebody "slipped out because he was so strong" you only make an excuse for yourself instead of thinking "i missed the armbar because it wasn't tight enough". Of course there are some cases where sweat can make a big deal, but at the same time I wrestled for 8 years, had hundreds and hundreds of wrestling practices where i and my training partner were soaking wet and I could still grab onto things and still hold him down, pin him, etc... You just have to learn how to cope with it technically instead of bitch about it being strength and speed and athletic ability.

I hear you, but I think at the higher levels it also becomes much more critical to get an edge any way you can ... and that's why you have to have great technique.

Wrestlers will also say the same thing about wrestling ... how technical it is ... but the fact is that top wrestlers are physical freaks who have to do incredible amounts of conditioning to succeed at that level. Wrestlers thus overstate the importance of technique, because to be a top competitive wrestler already assumes so much athletic selection and conditioning to even get your foot in the door. Technique is the tie-breaker, but tremendous physicality is the base requirement. BJJ? Well, let's just say that Pe de Pano, for example, is infamously lazy. Relatively old men, who would get raped in a wrestling competition, can destroy at gi-based BJJ, because technical proficiency is so overpowering as a factor.

Obviously this is not an absolute dynamic (there are plenty of excellent no-gi guys who aren't outstandingly athletic), but I think in general there is a lot of truth to the stereotype that no-gi is somewhere in the middle between wrestling and gi BJJ, in terms of technique v. athleticism. Yeah, at the top levels of nogi competitions, technique is vitally important -- any advantage is hugely significant. At lower levels? Not so much.

 

[DaRuckus337]

I hear you, but I think at the higher levels it also becomes much more critical to get an edge any way you can ... and that's why you have to have great technique.

Wrestlers will also say the same thing about wrestling ... how technical it is ... but the fact is that top wrestlers are physical freaks who have to do incredible amounts of conditioning to succeed at that level. Technique is the tie-breaker, but physicality is the base requirement. BJJ? Well, let's just say that Pe de Pano, for example, is infamously lazy.

Not quite. Wrestling is such a widely competed in sport that it is the best physical specimens out of a group of already elite technicians that succeed at the highest levels. Nobody, and I do mean nobody, succeeds in wrestling at any serious level without an abundance of technique. It is just that in wrestling, technique alone is not enough to succeed. Hard work in the form of great conditioning and strength training is also vital. BJJ snobs (and I'm not calling you one) often try to discredit wrestling and no-gi grappling by calling it overly dependent on physical gifts, when in reality, wrestling and no-gi just emphasize hard physical training in addition to technique training. Laziness is not something to be proud of bjj gi elitists!

As far as this age-old gi vs no gi discussion is concerned, that answer should be pretty clear to anyone who has been involved in bjj/sub grappling for a while. Practicing no gi improves your gi game, and practicing with gi improves your no gi game. The techniques are not entirely the same, and where/how pressures and grips are applied varies, but knowing how to do both improves overall technique in either. I personally try to practice gi and no gi each week, and I personally choose to do no-gi a little more, but I understand the importance of doing both, and I find both to be alot of fun.