Getting submitted from kesa gatame

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Marbig

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I just came back from open mat and one of the judokas there kept on making me tap from kesa. It wasn't from an armlock or a collar choke or anything either...the pressure was enough to make breathing difficult and thus the tap. My question is, seeing as I couldn't see it from a different perspective, how do you actually get into a position to simply pin someone into submission?

On a similar note, how do you get out of kesa gatame? I was taught two variations by my BJJ coach...one where the opponent has your arm circled around their waist (you get out by joining your arms and using that to pull/scope your legs close to theirs) and the other by pulling the person's shoulder down with the arm that isn't pinned. However, both variations depend on the fact that your back isn't flattened on the mat and you at least have one arm to use. My opponent ended up lying flat on me with one arm under his leg and the other too far to reach anything (probably because I was on my back). Is that any way to get out while you are flat on your back? Yeah, I know the best thing to do is not to end up in such a position in the first place, but is there?

Thanks.
 
A good Judoka is going to make being under scarfhold feel like you're dying.

When escaping from any variation of scarfhold the most important thing is to free the trapped arm and bring it to the mat - if he doesn't have your arm collected then he doesn't have scarfhold. It's easier said than done though, especially if he is just trying to pin you and not going for submissions.
 
Einarr said:
A good Judoka is going to make being under scarfhold feel like you're dying.

When escaping from any variation of scarfhold the most important thing is to free the trapped arm and bring it to the mat - if he doesn't have your arm collected then he doesn't have scarfhold. It's easier said than done though, especially if he is just trying to pin you and not going for submissions.
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Just wondering, but would I actually lose consciousness if I don't tap? I felt like it would but now you say this and I am not so sure anymore.
 
Marbig said:
Just wondering, but would I actually lose consciousness if I don't tap? I felt like it would but now you say this and I am not so sure anymore.
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Not if you're breathing properly. I've known people have mini panic attacks and tap out because they start breathing irregularly. There is the ol' wrap-the-sweaty-gi-skirt-around-their-face-while-in-scarfhold trick as well, which is unpleasant, difficult to breath and very panic-inducing (I won a Judo match with this as a green belt, haha, I don't know how I didn't get hansoku-make). :wink:
 
Marbig said:
Just wondering, but would I actually lose consciousness if I don't tap? I felt like it would but now you say this and I am not so sure anymore.
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No, it's just very uncomfortable. You would have been okay if you stayed in it, but it can be miserable to be stuck under a tight pin when training in the gi. If you're training in a BJJ setting (that is, can't lose by pin), don't rush and blow all your energy to get out, unless there is a competition-related reason. Be patient and look to get little bits of space at a time.

As for specific escapes, it really depends on the position you're in and what your opponent is doing. There are different variations of kesa gatame, and slightly different ways that people prefer to position themselves once they are there. Each difference in position means a different escape may or may not work.

That said, even the most effective escapes are going to be really hard to do against someone who knows how to pin. You're in a bad spot, and there's no escape that will get you out clean and simple every time. Even if you're doing it right, you're going to have to fight for it at least a little.
 
KarateFist said:
that's pretty embarassing
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how so? person had years of training on me as well as a good 50 pounds.

btw, yeah, now I know its not going to end in me sleeping I would not tap. I wasn't afraid of being uncomfortable...just didn't want to take the risk.

Thanks guys.

P.S. Keep possible escapes, however difficult, coming please? :D
 
I usually bridge if I feel the pin is too heavy giving me a little bit of relaxation. Control your breathing and try to get more on your side.

The scissor escape works really well for me. That and a combination of the first one you mentions are the ones I most frequently use.
 
I quit judo after yellow belt but have tapped guys in BJJ practice with kesa gatame as you described. The trick is to put your weight on their floating rib and diaphragm to make it extremely hard to breathe. It'll take a Lot for you to pass out from this. Your urge to breathe stems from the need to offgas CO2 built up more so from the exertion to escape. It'll be very uncomfortable, but you can build up a tolerance to it. I freedive and can hold my breath over six minutes (not while being held in kesa gatame though!) and as your body and mind get acclimated to that situation it's not as bad. Of course, this doesn't really help with an escape strategy other than "embrace the suck" which won't get you very far.
What we learned as an escape is (assume you're being held with opponent on your right side and you flat on your back) take your left hand, grab his belt or gi around his hips and lift him slightly then slide your hips under his. This is hard to do and extremely hard against someone who knows it's coming. Once your hips are under his, pull and roll to your left which will allow you to escape to your right. As you can imagine, this all depends on getting enough of his weight off of the floor and onto your hips.

Good luck and hope this helps
 
Marbig said:
I just came back from open mat and one of the judokas there kept on making me tap from kesa. It wasn't from an armlock or a collar choke or anything either...the pressure was enough to make breathing difficult and thus the tap. My question is, seeing as I couldn't see it from a different perspective, how do you actually get into a position to simply pin someone into submission?

On a similar note, how do you get out of kesa gatame? I was taught two variations by my BJJ coach...one where the opponent has your arm circled around their waist (you get out by joining your arms and using that to pull/scope your legs close to theirs) and the other by pulling the person's shoulder down with the arm that isn't pinned. However, both variations depend on the fact that your back isn't flattened on the mat and you at least have one arm to use. My opponent ended up lying flat on me with one arm under his leg and the other too far to reach anything (probably because I was on my back). Is that any way to get out while you are flat on your back? Yeah, I know the best thing to do is not to end up in such a position in the first place, but is there?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

In the words of Kurt O.: 'you f*cked up a long time ago'

Honestly, like others have said, if someone has a good pin on you, you might know all the technical escapes there are, but it will always be a fight to get out.
 
If you're flexible, push the blade of your forearm against their neck and get your leg over their face, if not, grab them ( either at the belt or in a bear hug) and explode into a bridge. If you are pinned there is no point in going for a fancy schmancy escape, you need to use dat core. :D
 
Body strangles from kesa suck. I've never SEEN anyone go unconscious, but if you can't breathe it seems obvious that you you would given enough time. Generally not being able to breathe is enough to cause people to tap long before that, though.
 
Marbig said:
I just came back from open mat and one of the judokas there kept on making me tap from kesa. It wasn't from an armlock or a collar choke or anything either...the pressure was enough to make breathing difficult and thus the tap. My question is, seeing as I couldn't see it from a different perspective, how do you actually get into a position to simply pin someone into submission?

On a similar note, how do you get out of kesa gatame? I was taught two variations by my BJJ coach...one where the opponent has your arm circled around their waist (you get out by joining your arms and using that to pull/scope your legs close to theirs) and the other by pulling the person's shoulder down with the arm that isn't pinned. However, both variations depend on the fact that your back isn't flattened on the mat and you at least have one arm to use. My opponent ended up lying flat on me with one arm under his leg and the other too far to reach anything (probably because I was on my back). Is that any way to get out while you are flat on your back? Yeah, I know the best thing to do is not to end up in such a position in the first place, but is there?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

There are different types of "kesa Gatame" and different ways of escaping. What I think happened to you is that the judo guy raised his hips off the ground to put more pressure on your chest. Not a clean way to tap someone IMO in particular if the person you are applying the pressure is smaller than you. If I have to do kesa gatame, my preference is "Makura kesa gatame" and I use this strategy to raise my hips just to control bigger opponents on their backs, since the head is raised from the ground it makes it difficult for them to bridge and turn, but they can still flip you over if your hip is too close to their bodies. From the makura kesa gatame, there are few submissions I like to do, such as ashi garame (bent arm bar with your legs) , ashi gatame (straight arm bar with your legs), kata gatame (arm triangle pin if you put pressure it become an arm triangle choke) from the arm triangle you can hop to the other side and you end up getting a side control.
 
Here's a pretty nice escape from Jeremy @ Great Grappling (Gerbiljiujitsu):

[YT]TJCPwupP0QY[/YT]

There are many escapes, and it's quite possible that the ones you do know are really good, it's just that your opponent might be better at his offensive technique than you are at your defensive techniques.
 
If someone is locking his hand on his tight do a strong birdge towards the opposite upper corner, he wont be able to post because his hand will be trapped on the ground.
 
I usually use the escape described in the video by taking my free arm and hooking my leg trying to get it over their face.

That being said a big part imo is not letting the person get settled into the pin more than anything else. As others have said it is absolutely awful awful awful to get a really good guy pinning you down with kesa. But I feel like if you do everything you can to prevent it from really settling in and them really cranking on your head upwards (so it's harder for you to bridge and get it) it should be easier to escape.

I like this Erik Paulson tutorial, kesa-gatame stuff starts at 1:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQPmabaMSCU
 
I got someone in a Kesa in BJJ a couple weeks ago, a modified one where you also take a leg from behind the knee and pull it towards the trapped arm. The guy I was rolling with struggled for a moment then just paused and relax as if "Shit... the fuck do I do now." for a good 10 helpless seconds. I felt so bad I released the hold a bit and gave him a chance to try and take my back (which he didn't since I saw it coming)

That's the first time I've ever released a hold cause I felt bad for someone.
 
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