From which belt can you use toe holds?

[BellyDownArmbar]

Which belt can you start using toe holds in competitions?

 

[Einarr]

Brown under IBJJF rules.

 

[Knock Out Ned]

Brown but I started learning them and using them as a white belt. I did a no gi advanced division when I was a white belt that allowed them.

 

[snakeybizz]

they were allowed in the no gi comp I entered...I won all 3 matches via toe hold

good to practice them in training because you don't have that "is it or isn't it on feeling" like you get with a heel hook... a toe hold hurts before it pops!

 

[Balto]

they were allowed in the no gi comp I entered...I won all 3 matches via toe hold

good to practice them in training because you don't have that "is it or isn't it on feeling" like you get with a heel hook... a toe hold hurts before it pops!

I've had the exact opposite experience with toe holds.

I have seen toe holds cause the most leg lock injuries, and it's not even close. Granted the toe hold injuries tend to be relatively minor as far as things go, and they usually heal on their own pretty well.

But the chances of something going pop by accident in a toe hold seem to be far greater than the chances of that happening with a heel hook.

Personally I've had toe hold pop injuries 10+ times. I've never had one with a heel hook (granted people go for heel hooks less frequently than they go for toe holds).

 

[snakeybizz]

I've had the exact opposite experience with toe holds.

I have seen toe holds cause the most leg lock injuries, and it's not even close. Granted the toe hold injuries tend to be relatively minor as far as things go, and they usually heal on their own pretty well.

But the chances of something going pop by accident in a toe hold seem to be far greater than the chances of that happening with a heel hook.

Personally I've had toe hold pop injuries 10+ times. I've never had one with a heel hook (granted people go for heel hooks less frequently than they go for toe holds).

hmm well in terms of injury rate maybe you are right, but in terms of the actual injury I feel better about going for a toe hold in training...because you get some popping and clicking in the ankle in a worst case scenario but a heel hook against a stubborn opponent can put them out permanently

I hurt 3 people in the same rolling session a month back and have been scared to go for heel hooks ever since, they were only ankle injuries and not knee thank god...its not my fault tho they just don't tap!! grrr it winds me up because they go cry to the coach...its kinda of crap really I'm just gonna save it for comps and mma ... stick with Achilles and toe holds in training

 

[Balto]

hmm well in terms of injury rate maybe you are right, but in terms of the actual injury I feel better about going for a toe hold in training...because you get some popping and clicking in the ankle in a worst case scenario but a heel hook against a stubborn opponent can put them out permanently

I hurt 3 people in the same rolling session a month back and have been scared to go for heel hooks ever since...its not my fault tho they just don't tap grr it winds me up then they go cry to the coach...its kinda of crap really I'm just gonna save it for comps and mma ... stick with Achilles and toe holds in training

Yeah toe hold injuries tend not to be as serious. I was just saying that in my experience, they definitely don't hurt before they pop. Plenty of times you will be holding on, and then suddenly it snaps. Now you're limping around for about six weeks.

 

[mr violent]

hmm well in terms of injury rate maybe you are right, but in terms of the actual injury I feel better about going for a toe hold in training...because you get some popping and clicking in the ankle in a worst case scenario but a heel hook against a stubborn opponent can put them out permanently

I hurt 3 people in the same rolling session a month back and have been scared to go for heel hooks ever since, they were only ankle injuries and not knee thank god...its not my fault tho they just don't tap!! grrr it winds me up because they go cry to the coach...its kinda of crap really I'm just gonna save it for comps and mma ... stick with Achilles and toe holds in training

if you know it's on tight, why wouldn't you just let go? it's just rolling in class, not a tournament, right?

 

[snakeybizz]

if you know it's on tight, why wouldn't you just let go? it's just rolling in class, not a tournament, right?

prior to me stopping heel hooks... I usually tagged them by holding them for 5 seconds, then would slowly twist, there face would grimace and would try and twist out of it...the ankle cracked and so I let go and asked if they were okay...this is just 3 people, the rest tapped

I strongly believe they are in the wrong...they had plenty time to tap, if you have a kimura and the guy doesn't tap do you let go? no you slowly and with control apply more pressure until your partner taps...as opposed to a competition where you crank like you've never cranked before

 

[brendan raedy]

if you know it's on tight, why wouldn't you just let go? it's just rolling in class, not a tournament, right?

It's a two way street. You shouldn't be cranking so hard you cause injury, but you should also tap when you get caught.

Not cool to put your partner in a spot where they either hurt you or let you out of a move.

It's like the people they block a choke with their face and then get upset when you choke their face.

 

[Drew Foster]

Yeah toe hold injuries tend not to be as serious. I was just saying that in my experience, they definitely don't hurt before they pop. Plenty of times you will be holding on, and then suddenly it snaps. Now you're limping around for about six weeks.

I agree, but they do cause pain for me. It's just that for some reason it's the sort of pain that I think I can tough out. I've had more injuries from toe holds than any other foot lock, and I do feel some pain leading up to the tap, but it's not the kind of pain that causes that instant tap. My dumb ass always tries to curl my leg in (which might increase the pressure?) so that I can shoot a darce. Too many Bill Cooper videos...when it works it feels great. When it doesn't I feel stupid.

I always think I can last longer in toe holds than I actually can. I've never been actually hurt by one but I've definitely had a couple that tweaked me a bit.

There's such a misunderstanding with them. I had someone tell me the other day that they're the safest leg lock out there. Word? That's up there with "the straight foot/ankle lock is a pain compliance technique and can't actually hurt anyone."

 

[Balto]

I agree, but they do cause pain for me. It's just that for some reason it's the sort of pain that I think I can tough out. I've had more injuries from toe holds than any other foot lock, and I do feel some pain leading up to the tap, but it's not the kind of pain that causes that instant tap. My dumb ass always tries to curl my leg in (which might increase the pressure?) so that I can shoot a darce. Too many Bill Cooper videos...when it works it feels great. When it doesn't I feel stupid.

I always think I can last longer in toe holds than I actually can. I've never been actually hurt by one but I've definitely had a couple that tweaked me a bit.

There's such a misunderstanding with them. I had someone tell me the other day that they're the safest leg lock out there. Word? That's up there with "the straight foot/ankle lock is a pain compliance technique and can't actually hurt anyone."

I would probably vote straight kneebar as the safest. There are some pretty big muscles involved to resist it, making it tough to injure if you come at it straight on.

A twisted kneebar can be pretty nasty though.

 

[brendan raedy]

I agree, but they do cause pain for me. It's just that for some reason it's the sort of pain that I think I can tough out. I've had more injuries from toe holds than any other foot lock, and I do feel some pain leading up to the tap, but it's not the kind of pain that causes that instant tap. My dumb ass always tries to curl my leg in (which might increase the pressure?) so that I can shoot a darce. Too many Bill Cooper videos...when it works it feels great. When it doesn't I feel stupid.

I always think I can last longer in toe holds than I actually can. I've never been actually hurt by one but I've definitely had a couple that tweaked me a bit.

There's such a misunderstanding with them. I had someone tell me the other day that they're the safest leg lock out there. Word? That's up there with "the straight foot/ankle lock is a pain compliance technique and can't actually hurt anyone."

Well most people wind up doing a crude calf crush rather than a foot lock when they attempt a straight ankle lock, so technically the people that call it a pain compliance move are correct. This is because the choking edge of their forearm is too far up on the leg to begin, or they do not adjust after their opponent puts the boot on. You have to get on our side and scoot back, or go belly down.

A properly applied straight ankle lock will tear your CFL and ATFL, as will a toe hold.

 

[snakeybizz]

I agree, but they do cause pain for me. It's just that for some reason it's the sort of pain that I think I can tough out. I've had more injuries from toe holds than any other foot lock, and I do feel some pain leading up to the tap, but it's not the kind of pain that causes that instant tap. My dumb ass always tries to curl my leg in (which might increase the pressure?) so that I can shoot a darce. Too many Bill Cooper videos...when it works it feels great. When it doesn't I feel stupid.

I always think I can last longer in toe holds than I actually can. I've never been actually hurt by one but I've definitely had a couple that tweaked me a bit.

There's such a misunderstanding with them. I had someone tell me the other day that they're the safest leg lock out there. Word? That's up there with "the straight foot/ankle lock is a pain compliance technique and can't actually hurt anyone."

see that's the thing for me is the pain response, a toe hold straight up feels like my ankle is about to snap if I don't tap, I've never came across someone who can even try and resist it a little bit (provided its legit on with good technique)...heel hook can be more is it or isn't ? maybe that's just me though

 

[brendan raedy]

see that's the thing for me is the pain response, a toe hold straight up feels like my ankle is about to snap if I don't tap, I've never came across someone who can even try and resist it a little bit (provided its legit on with good technique)...heel hook can be more is it or isn't ? maybe that's just me though

Maybe on a standard heel hook, but reverse heel hook you know your knee is about to explode when it is locked on.

 

[snakeybizz]

Well most people wind up doing a crude calf crush rather than a foot lock when they attempt a straight ankle lock, so technically the people that call it a pain compliance move are correct. This is because the choking edge of their forearm is too far up on the leg to begin, or they do not adjust after their opponent puts the boot on. You have to get on our side and scoot back, or go belly down.

A properly applied straight ankle lock will tear your CFL and ATFL, as will a toe hold.

yep well that is a properly done achiles lock isn't it...its just a toe hold done with your back and shoulder

breaking down the mechanics of the Achilles lock has made mine much more high percentage by making it a legit joint submission as opposed to a pain calf slicer type thing

 

[snakeybizz]

Maybe on a standard heel hook, but reverse heel hook you know your knee is about to explode when it is locked on.

you know I have this weird thing about an inverted heel hook making me feel physically sick...like when I'm in the inverted heel hook position it makes me feel ill to even apply it on my partner...theres like a cm of torque and its snap city, yuck

something about my leg twisting that way I really don't like... more so then the other side

 

[Balto]

see that's the thing for me is the pain response, a toe hold straight up feels like my ankle is about to snap if I don't tap, I've never came across someone who can even try and resist it a little bit (provided its legit on with good technique)...heel hook can be more is it or isn't ? maybe that's just me though

Toe holds seem to be the most resisted leg submissions by far. Guys resist toe holds all the time. Just look at any major competition brown or black division to see tons of examples.

Guys resist heel hooks too, but not nearly as much as toe holds from what I've seen. Most top black belts appear as if they are basically immune to toe holds, just ignoring guys fully cranking on them. I think there is a lot of technique going on in the defense to deny the angle needed to finish, but contrast that to a heel hook. Top black belts aren't usually ignoring fully cranked heel hooks just by making tiny angle adjustments.

Toe hold is probably the most attempted and least successful leg submission in high level grappling competition. It's the king of spam submissions. I still like toe holds though.

 

[Centaur]

prior to me stopping heel hooks... I usually tagged them by holding them for 5 seconds, then would slowly twist, there face would grimace and would try and twist out of it...the ankle cracked and so I let go and asked if they were okay...this is just 3 people, the rest tapped

I strongly believe they are in the wrong...they had plenty time to tap, if you have a kimura and the guy doesn't tap do you let go? no you slowly and with control apply more pressure until your partner taps...as opposed to a competition where you crank like you've never cranked before

I can see where you're coming from, but for me personally, I just let go. I know I had them, they know I had them (even if they pretend I didn't) and everyone goes home un-injured.

That's just me though.

 

[snakeybizz]

Toe holds seem to be the most resisted leg submissions by far. Guys resist toe holds all the time. Just look at any major competition brown or black division to see tons of examples.

Guys resist heel hooks too, but not nearly as much as toe holds from what I've seen. Most top black belts appear as if they are basically immune to toe holds, just ignoring guys fully cranking on them. I think there is a lot of technique going on in the defense to deny the angle needed to finish, but contrast that to a heel hook. Top black belts aren't usually ignoring fully cranked heel hooks just by making tiny angle adjustments.

Toe hold is probably the most attempted and least successful leg submission in high level grappling competition. It's the king of spam submissions. I still like toe holds though.

well it was resisted pretty recently at metamoris...glover vs yoshida, dunno how tight it was but glover looked her put a lot into it

my favourite part about a toehold is how reckless you can be with them, full mount and literally just dive for them for the lolz...you can do that will all leg locks I suppose but you gotta adjust, get good positioning bla bla bla...toe holds you can just throw your self at and spam like you said