"Every Shooters go to move" - why the Grovit/Front Face Lock not used more in MMA?

[TheMaster]

Seems we seldom see this in MMA, what was known as "every Shooters go to move".



Are there any known examples in MMA? Surprising given how legendary the reputation of the move was in old catch circles we don't see it much.

It seems like the arm in guillotine is generally what gets used as a finisher of choice instead.

 

[Human Bass]

It seems to require a more precise fit and relies on pain. A choke cutting off the supply of oxigen to the brain is much harder to resist by toughness.

 

[TheMaster]

It seems to require a more precise fit and relies on pain. A choke cutting off the supply of oxigen to the brain is much harder to resist by toughness.

Yes this seems the obvious answer. But the question then remains why the rep of the move developed in the first place when the arm in guillotine is the clear alternative that is usually easier to get.

 

[Human Bass]

Yes this seems the obvious answer. But the question then remains why the rep of the move developed in the first place when the arm in guillotine is the clear alternative that is usually easier to get.

Chokes were banned in most catch rulesets. Rear naked chokes are too OP when the wrestler has to expose the back to avoid a pin.

 

[TheMaster]

Chokes were banned in most catch rulesets. Rear naked chokes are too OP when the wrestler has to expose the back to avoid a pin.

Well, doesn't still explain fully why the move was considered the go to for self defence type situations by shooters. It is applied from the front and standing so that is a big plus.

There have to be some advantages over the arm in guillotine though.
Maybe as a control hold it is easier to get since it doesn't require getting the forearm under the chin and can be applied very fast.
A nasty neck crank might make someone give faster than a failed attempt at a choke since they feel the pressure right away even if you can't get it all on.

 

[yetanother]

Yes this seems the obvious answer. But the question then remains why the rep of the move developed in the first place when the arm in guillotine is the clear alternative that is usually easier to get.

Grapplers with low skill tend to use weird moves.

 

[TheMaster]

Grapplers with low skill tend to use weird moves.

And in other news, a random Billy Robinson student shows off some of his skills.

 

[Vaanderdecken]

I wonder what Lister, who hadn't been tapped in 16 years, thought of this "low skill" grappler with a "weird move".

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Grapplers with low skill tend to use weird moves.

Low level grapplers tend to write off techniques they don't know how to do.

 

[nefti]

Yes this seems the obvious answer. But the question then remains why the rep of the move developed in the first place when the arm in guillotine is the clear alternative that is usually easier to get.

Because when the face lock was in vogue, catch rules didn't allow chokes and in self defense youre usually not going against trained guys. So a hard crossface works.

 

[TheMaster]

Because when the face lock was in vogue, catch rules didn't allow chokes and in self defense youre usually not going against trained guys. So a hard crossface works.

Maybe thats a reason.
Facelocks can work on trained people too, just ask Mcgregor.

Also the Grovit is a neck crank as well so can be devastating. The feeling of maybe having your neck broken will make someone tap trained or not.

 

[Vaanderdecken]

This technique works really well when your opponent is fighting the hands on your guillotine, or when he's tucking the chin to avoid being choked out. I use it as a facelock until they expose the neck and give up the choke. It's a completely legit neck-crank and will literally break your teeth or jaw when applied properly.

 

[nefti]

Maybe thats a reason.
Facelocks can work on trained people too, just ask Mcgregor.

Also the Grovit is a neck crank as well so can be devastating. The feeling of maybe having your neck broken will make someone tap trained or not.

Youre not gonna break necks in self defense... unless you are....... above the law.

 

[TheMaster]

Youre not gonna break necks in self defense... unless you are....... above the law.

The feeling of risk of breaking the neck will make people give up not to mention legit risk of breaking the jaw.

This technique works really well when your opponent is fighting the hands on your guillotine, or when he's tucking the chin to avoid being choked out. I use it as a facelock until they expose the neck and give up the choke. It's a completely legit neck-crank and will literally break your teeth or jaw when applied properly.

Do we know of any uses in modern MMA though as either a finishing hold or transitional hold?

 

[Nnedd]

My guess is that it is used more than the arm in guillotine in catch because catch wrestlers (based on my cursory understanding of the sport) avoid being on their backs whenever possible due to the danger of pinning. Not gonna find many catch wrestlers who are going to snap down from the tie into a guillotine and then jump guard.

I'm less familiar with that face lock than I am cupping the chin and turning the head cow catcher style. Seems like they both have their place.

I do use that style face lock when going from front headlock to back control in top turtle sometimes. Instead of blocking the arm when I spin, I'll take left hand and face lock while moving to my right, or vice versa.

 

[rmongler]

It was a big thing amongst english wrestlers; chokes were more common in american competitions.

 

[Dece]

It's quite simple, it's the headlock that gives you the least amount of control of your opponent. It's very easy to escape. First time Roy Wood showed that move, we drilled it and the he showed us the counter. It's just pulling out your shoulder and spin your head out of it. You never see people tapping out from the grovit, never in any competition or sparring.

It seems to require a more precise fit and relies on pain. A choke cutting off the supply of oxigen to the brain is much harder to resist by toughness.

I guess you could choke out people with it, Hulk Hogan did.

It was a big thing amongst english wrestlers; chokes were more common in american competitions.

That's mostly a myth. Sure a lot of good moves were created on your side of the pond due to america being the migration melting pot it is. However the moves usually found it's way home to UK. Ian Bromley who trained with Roy Wood, Billy Wicks and Tony Cecchine confirmed it's all the same. Not to mention the Billy Wicks lineage being the only surviving traditional catch lineage in america also banned chokes and knew what a grovit was.

 

[TheMaster]

It's quite simple, it's the headlock that gives you the least amount of control of your opponent. It's very easy to escape. First time Roy Wood showed that move, we drilled it and the he showed us the counter. It's just pulling out your shoulder and spin your head out of it. You never see people tapping out from the grovit, never in any competition or sparring.



I guess you could choke out people with it, Hulk Hogan did.





That's mostly a myth. Sure a lot of good moves were created on your side of the pond due to america being the migration melting pot it is. However the moves usually found it's way home to UK. Ian Bromley who trained with Roy Wood, Billy Wicks and Tony Cecchine confirmed it's all the same. Not to mention the Billy Wicks lineage being the only surviving traditional catch lineage in america also banned chokes and knew what a grovit was.

This isn't quite true though.
First up its an extremely dangerous hold as a neck crank at that angle, I wouldn't be comfortable using it with a lot of force doing free sparring and randori with someone as very easy to damage the neck.

It may well be true that the Front Face Lock became the standard way of doing the hold due to the rules of catch forbidding chokes.
But in that case it is actually just a variation.
Here we see the Grovit taught as a choke.


It is not a 'guillotine'. It is a Grovit over the windpipe and neck. So the confusion comes from the fact it's more accurate I realize to say that the Front Face Lock is a Grovit over the face if you can't get under the chin or if chokes are not allowed so is just another variation. Obviously one could lead to the other also moving from a front headlock position to a Grovit Front Face Lock to a Grovit Choke.

 

[yetanother]

I wonder what Lister, who hadn't been tapped in 16 years, thought of this "low skill" grappler with a "weird move".

Wished he wasn't hangover? Lister admitted that he used to drink 20 beers per day.

 

[DeepFry]

Some of those catch wrestling techniques are kind of neat.