Does striking rely more on size/strength than grappling?

cino

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From a self defense perspective, not MMA, is a small guy (say 5'6-5'8), 155 pounds better off with something like boxing/MT or judo/bjj?

Can a small guy with boxing experience realistically defend himself against a guy who is 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier?
 
Let me put it this way...

If someone has 50 pounds on you, there is a good chance the can out range and knock you out.

If someone has 50 pounds on you, there is a good chance you can choke them to death.
 
^ Striking relies less on strength and size than grappling, however in a self-defence situation you'd better know how to deal with being grabbed by someone must larger and stronger than you because that's likely to happen if you start boxing their head off, assuming you can't finish them real quick. First thing a bigger guy is going to do if getting lit up is use their natural advantage and grab a hold of you.

So probably not the answer you wanted to hear but you better do both!
 
Why was this thread necroed from the plethora of similar threads like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbN-mWON6Ug
Here is a much smaller man clowning a larger, longer boxer.

So there is evidence of proper boxing knowledge being effectively utilized by a smaller man to compete successfully against larger/longer guys.

Anecdotal evidence
When I was I younger I unfortunatley found myself incarcerated for a short period. During that time one of my "cellies" was a large Aryan nation guy that likes to fight, he liked to fight a lot (he was incarcerated for assaulting an officer). When I told him that I was half Mexican he was actually very cool with it and he would often tell me the story of how he got his shit pushed in by a tiny Mexican guy (he would often say the guy was between 5'4 to 5'6 while he was about 6'1). When I asked him how this guy beat him up he would just shrug and say "he had really good hands". This guy was the definition of a bro and very proud of the fact that he wrestled in high school and claimed to wrestle in college as well (although I doubt he attended college…).

The science
Martial arts are a science and there is a right way and wrong way to do things, that being said the old saying "there are 1000 ways to skin a cat" is still very applicable. When anybody tries earnestly to learn under any system that is taught correctly grappling or striking they will be learning tools that will help them and give them an edge over the untrained. There are a million ways to fight or approach a fight but confidence and actual knowledge will carry someone far no matter what the situation is. which is why threads like these are stupid they are inherently flawed because it is trying to simplify martial arts to bland statements and situations that do not actually exist, really it is just a bunch of nonsense.
 
Realistically it's gonna be hard either way. You have to achieve a certain level of competency in any art to use it effectively in a live situation and it will take exponentially more with increasing size advantage.

Out of striking and grappling size and strength is more of advantage in grappling then striking, but it helps in both.
 
Skill disparity is universal in both.

However, when Marcello Garcia is winning absolute divisions it is indicative of a trend.
 
^ Striking relies less on strength and size than grappling, however in a self-defence situation you'd better know how to deal with being grabbed by someone must larger and stronger than you because that's likely to happen if you start boxing their head off, assuming you can't finish them real quick. First thing a bigger guy is going to do if getting lit up is use their natural advantage and grab a hold of you.

So probably not the answer you wanted to hear but you better do both!

these sself defense threads are usually fun to read because of all the stupid replies but this is spot on.
 
Size and Strength are a massive advantage in grappling, in striking arts smaller guy is usually going to be the faster guy, and can you use his speed and possibly better technique to pick apart a bigger opponent, were as in grappling the bigger, stronger guy is usually going to dominate the clinch, be the more difficult person to take down, they'll move the smaller guys weight around much easier than the other way around, and their size helps hold dominant position. Its an advantage to be bigger and stronger than your opponent in both striking and grappling. In grappling it one of the most important advantages, in striking not quite as important but still a advantage. And when we're talking about bigger stronger guys I'm talking about athletic people not some fat slob.
 
In striking weight and strength is less of a factor but height is more of a factor. Theoretically you should be able to do a little bit of everything for self defence striking and grappling/wrestling just to be able to defend against someone who wants to take you down. MMA has everything but realistically you won't have many problems with the average guy if you know any kind of combat sports.
Against someone who isn't some kind of freak athlete and/or has combat sports or street fighting experience you shouldn't have many problems if you do kickboxing and have basic wrestling (at least how to defend getting taken down) knowledge.
I know someone whi is about 5'6-5'7' 145lbs did kickboxing and I'm really confident he would beat any 6'2' 190lbs guy who doesn't have combat sports experience
 
If you want to defend yourself, you really ought to know a bit of both (striking and grappling), because somebody could always grab you when you don't want them to, and you might want to get away from them... and somebody could always take a swing at you, and you might not want to get hit by that punch.

I'd say you want to pick at least one out of this group:

-boxing
-muay thai
-certain kinds of karate (many are impractical)
(NOT most Chinese martial arts or tae kwon do, at least as they're taught in America these days, unfortunately. If they're not ever sparring, they're teaching you make-believe.)

and at least one out of this group:

-wrestling
-judo
-bjj

Or you could go to a good mma school. Back in the early 90's somebody famously said, "If all the different martial arts fought each other and there were no rules, who would win?" Twenty years later, it turns out the answer is: somebody who knows grappling and striking--otherwise it's always possible to get caught up in a situation you can't do anything about. There are some Korean martial arts that teach both striking and grappling, too. And, honestly Krav Maga is probably a good option for a lot of people. If you're not really that interested in martial arts, and you want some good self-defense basics in a reasonably short amount of time, Krav Maga does that pretty well. That's mostly what it was designed for.

Unfortunately, it's can be hard to tell whether an mma school is a "good" mma school, or whether it teaches effective self-defense before you go there for a while. Martial arts is kind of always a journey.

Martial arts should be fun, and a good workout. It can also give you a little bit of an idea about how to keep yourself from getting hurt by another person, which can be pretty empowering. That said, the world is pretty chaotic and there are some situations martial arts aren't going to help, and there are no guarantees.

As to the question about size/strength in striking and grappling:

In my experience, between two relatively skilled hobbyist strikers or grapplers, size/strength matters less in striking. I've outstruck a lot of guys that I could never outgrapple, because they were too much larger to deal with once they get a hold of me.

Maybe more pertinent to your question, if you do a year of hardcore bjj, going to class a few times a week and maybe drilling a few things on your own at home--you should tool an average guy on the street after that. On the other hand, if you have never done a striking art before, and you do a year of boxing, you'll probably still tool an average guy on the street, but I think it's less certain. I think it takes a little longer to get that head movement and balance, and really fast, easy, loose hands that would let you just clown somebody.

If you do boxing for a few years, though, somebody could be swinging at you, and you could make them hit nothing but air, and then knock them silly pretty easily. It looks really cool, too. I love doing that. Whereas with grappling you have to get all up on them, and you get dirty and undignified, and half the time in the street random other people will jump in and do things to two people on the ground.
 
It matters for sure in both.

I have beaten plenty of bigger guys, but at the same time some of my all time worst beatings have been from guys that were bigger.

I put up decent numbers in the weight-room and am decently strong, I often fight taller guys, but they arent stronger. But when I fight someone who is taller, stronger, and much bigger, it can become overwhelming if they know what they are doing.

they make weight classes for a reason. I do spar a lot of smaller and bigger guys as anyone does, but come a realistic situation it does matter.
 
It matters more so in stand up than in newaza (if that is the point you're asking) - if you're talking about nage-waza or general throws/wrestling then it's about the same I reckon.


The unfortunate truth is size does matter in stand up & grappling the exception being newaza (submissions) where it does still matter but less so - very rarely will a little guy beat a big guy, the rare occasions it does happen it's usually technique & heart > size.

That's why if you watch any combat sports - there are weight categories not many have open weight - because it's unfair, one of the few sports it is prevalent in is knockdown karate, it's not unusual to see someone 70kg fighting a guy who's 95kg for example - heck I've seen a 70kg vs 110kg (Ryu Narushima vs Francisco Filho - complete mismatch) - a large portion of the time the bigger guys win - in fact most of the world champs in KK have been pretty big (exception Midori & Matsui).


People who say size does not matter - usually say so out of ignorance in never having fought someone much larger than themselves - after having watched so much knockdown karate & even seeing a small guy getting mauled by a bigger fellow - I'm pretty sure size does definitely matter - there are rare cases though the smaller man will beat the odds, it's nice to see that happen but it's not a common occurrence in fact it is pretty rare.
 
Bob sapp vs cro cop. If you're smaller and lighter, its not a good idea to grapple with someone larger and bigger than u unless you're alot more skilled.
 
small guys should learn parkour

B boying will give you the anamillistic moves too and you will be unorthodox therefore you will become a great fighter. Ask Abdallah mabel
 
I don't know how you answer this. In both striking and grappling, technique exists to limit the differences created by size and strength. Neither of them rely on size/strength, they exist to neutralize size and strength.

A large fighter might rely on his size/strength difference to absorb more punishment or use his reach to his advantage or his strength to batter his opponent's smaller frame. A large grappler might use his size/strength to simply overpower a superior offensive attack or to power through his opponent's technically sound defense to a hold/throw.

So, I don't know how you separate out striking and grappling from the advantages that superior size/strength bring to determine which one relies more on those advantages.
 
small guys should learn parkour

B boying will give you the anamillistic moves too and you will be unorthodox therefore you will become a great fighter. Ask Abdallah mabel

Theres always someone bigger. I dont care how big you are, you will feel small from time to time.
 
I'm biased but to me judo is #1 for self defense. It's very difficult to defend against without training, as judo uses someone's weight, momentum, and natural reactions against them.

Being shorter in judo means your hips are lower, which is key in many throws. You use your hips as a fulcrum, and lower hips mean an easier throw.

Getting thrown on soft grass hurts. Getting harai goshi'd onto a bar floor or pavement is severe punishment.
 
I'll put it this way: Boxing and BJJ both have weight classes, but you're never going to see an absolute division in boxing.
 
From a self defense perspective, not MMA, is a small guy (say 5'6-5'8), 155 pounds better off with something like boxing/MT or judo/bjj?

Can a small guy with boxing experience realistically defend himself against a guy who is 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier?

Well no. If we avoid your extremes, then striking is preferable for skinnier guys. One can compensate a lack of weight, with explosiveness and speed. It doesn't however matter how quick you are in BJJ, you won't get the guy down. Remember that Judo Gene Lebelle took several rounds to down a Boxer, who had no knowledge of Judo. Boxer was simply a professionelly trained, strong athlete. The fact that it took so long despite extensive grappling (heavily favouring the Judoka), speaks volumes.
 
I'll put it this way: Boxing and BJJ both have weight classes, but you're never going to see an absolute division in boxing.

That has more to do with the nature of the competition not the importance of size. In bjj if your rolling with a guy that has fifty pounds on you he subs you and you tap. In boxing that dude is breaking ribs and giving you brain damage.
 
Not much between them in my view, 50lb heavier is alot to deal with for striking or grappling.

If i had to fight a much bigger guy I know I would try and knock him down with the first couple of hits otherwise it would be trouble if he got hold of you and was strong, unless he was just much taller then i'd try a double leg and be on top.

Plenty of vids on youtube of smaller guys ko'ing bigger ones.
In self defence for the street you don't know if the attacker can fight or not, if he cant then you got a good chance with boxing but if he can then you may get hurt quick.
 
Honestly I think skill can overcome size and power in equal amounts in both grappling and striking.
 
I'd say you want to pick at least one out of this group:

-boxing
-muay thai
-certain kinds of karate (many are impractical)
(NOT most Chinese martial arts or tae kwon do, at least as they're taught in America these days, unfortunately. If they're not ever sparring, they're teaching you make-believe.)

and at least one out of this group:

-wrestling
-judo
-bjj

Is kickboxing useless?

Is sambo useless?

This list sucks.
 
From a self defense perspective, not MMA, is a small guy (say 5'6-5'8), 155 pounds better off with something like boxing/MT or judo/bjj?

Can a small guy with boxing experience realistically defend himself against a guy who is 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier?

From my experience (judo and boxing), size makes a bigger difference in grappling than in striking overall, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

Height/reach matters much more in striking than in grappling.

Weight/strength matters more in grappling than in striking.

Both reach and strength are less important on the ground than in stand-up, and that gets particularly obvious when there is a big skill difference.

The sad truth is that size matters a lot in both striking and grappling. But having said that, I think a skilled boxer would still be able to beat an unskilled much bigger guy. Partly because of better skills and fitness, but also because he'll be used to taking a hit without freezing up.

My personal experience is that you have a steeper learning curve in judo than in boxing (can't tell about BJJ really) so if you want to quickly get better at defending yourself, maybe striking would be a better option than grappling in that respect. But you probably want at least some grappling skills as well. I'd recommend some cross-training, or maybe an MMA gym. In the end, it's more important to find a place you like than a style that's "ideal" for your body type.
 
The sad truth is that size matters a lot in both striking and grappling.

'awesome' truth morelike!

Listen. You get to fit on train and bus seats, get more proportional food for your money, fit through dog flaps etc. I get to reach the top shelf and find fighting easier.

Seems pretty fair to me.

Sounds like you want your cake AND you want to eat it.
 
I don't know how you answer this. In both striking and grappling, technique exists to limit the differences created by size and strength. Neither of them rely on size/strength, they exist to neutralize size and strength.

A large fighter might rely on his size/strength difference to absorb more punishment or use his reach to his advantage or his strength to batter his opponent's smaller frame. A large grappler might use his size/strength to simply overpower a superior offensive attack or to power through his opponent's technically sound defense to a hold/throw.

So, I don't know how you separate out striking and grappling from the advantages that superior size/strength bring to determine which one relies more on those advantages.

bingo

phys advantages always play a part even in the highest levels...durability strength power are determining factors when tech ability is equal and its the determining factor if there is a big enough gap in physical ability. I.e floyd ain't fighting andre ward...or when whittaker moved up and said the super welters hit too hard and he moved back down..an this is pernell one of the best def boxers in the world.


also as royce said the bigger the gap in size power durability reach etc, the more skilled u have to be..a mediocre striker grappler is gonna have problems w/a big strong tough durable guy, esp if said guy has alot of athletic ability..i.e. these college athletes who want beef sometimes.
 
Is kickboxing useless?

Is sambo useless?

This list sucks.




You are quite correct, sir. My list is far from complete. And quite the contrary, sambo is one of the best martial arts, and a glaring omission seeing as how I live in a mostly Russian/Chinese neighborhood.

As something of an excuse, I may have left those martial arts off because I thought they were somewhat less common, and I had assumed that the poster would have rather a harder time finding a school that taught them. Although I have done striking sparring with at least one guy who practiced American kickboxing, and grappled against two people who were trained in Sambo (one of them wasn't even ethnically Russian) so they musn't be THAT uncommon.

Kickboxing would be an entirely adequate option for the "striking" category, and sambo would be terrific option for the grappling/takedown category, if one wanted to be fairly well prepared for self-defense.

I don't know what sorts of martial arts options are available in the poster's neighborhood. Can anyone else think of any additions to either of the two categories? Or, does anyone have an opinion about which of them might be better for a smaller person? I believe a previous poster mentioned judo, which seems like a good choice, given the point made about lower fulcrum point and such.
 
I think the real advantage to weight is the ability to pin your guy down. Even if a guy is just very fat you have to respect that ability.

Obviously, pinning is how you win in wrestling, but even in bjj, most fundamental passes involve pinning and systematically moving forward.

If you want to get crazy, being on the ropes, or trapped in the corner isn't that different. You don't want to be between an obstacle and someone who can crush you.

That's why I think it's wrestling is so important for defending yourself. I know it saved my butt a few times. That's probably why I get pissed when people don't take the hip escape and stand up drills in bjj seriously. It might SAVE YOUR LIFE.
 
It matters for sure in both.

I have beaten plenty of bigger guys, but at the same time some of my all time worst beatings have been from guys that were bigger.

I put up decent numbers in the weight-room and am decently strong, I often fight taller guys, but they arent stronger. But when I fight someone who is taller, stronger, and much bigger, it can become overwhelming if they know what they are doing.

they make weight classes for a reason. I do spar a lot of smaller and bigger guys as anyone does, but come a realistic situation it does matter.

E-stat me, bro: What can you hit for a single on the squat, bench and deadlift?
 
Like someone else said look what is better for you, for example Judo is my base and I love it but can say strength is more important, I am 1,80 with good flexible legs and in 1 year of Muay Thai I made better tools that in like 5 years of Judo , I am not fast but had a very good brazilian kru and can knock someone with either legs or punches but I don´t have so many natural atributes for Judo, it seems to be a BJJ mantra but if you are small ,have natural power or heavy hands you can knock a giant because nobody has extra muscle in the chin...
 
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