Do you use broken rhythm & feinting in your stand up?

[Bay Area]

I think these two standup aspects are very important, and are missing in MMA striking. When I took JKD classes long ago, these were heavily emphisised. Both are used to force your opponent to "fight your fight". Machida uses it all the time in his fights, and it is one of the reasons why he is such a match up nightmare. Yes, alot of it has to do with his "elusiveness". But the main reason is his feinting and broken rhythm. He will bounce lightly up and down, then suddenly stomp his foot down and raise his arms to mess with you, and to get you to react. He will jerk his head forward suddenly and not comitt to anything, then you get frustrated and charge forward. Boxers do it all the time too. Point TMA fighters as well. The toughest guy I have ever sparred with doesn't it constantly to the point that I am thrown completely off of my game.

So my question is (and I know I am rambling out of my ass somewhat) is do you use broken rhythm & feinting?

Any of your favorite fighters use it?

Discuss


Edit: the first 15 seconds of this TKD video illustrate what I am talking about. These two guys spend the first 15 seconds feeling each other out, breaking rhythm and feinting:

 

[SummerStriker]

I think Broken Rhythm and striking power are two sides of the same coin. Without broken rhythm, it is harder to land a power shot. Without powerful striking, your opponent won't respect you and respond to your feints.

Generally, a clean shot can really hurt a much larger person. Once your striking is strong enough to hurt someone, broken rhythm is an important aspect because it is an element that lets you apply your mind along with your body against your opponent. You need that to overcome larger and stronger people usually.

I use it all the time the best I can.

I think the reason why you don't see it in MMA striking is because MMA striking is usually on a low level. What I think is interesting to watch is a technically good striker being outwitted by someone using broken rhythm. It rarely gets to that point though because what you usually have is a technically bad brawler running face first into basic strikes. Against the technically bad brawler, broken rhythm isn't as effective because he isn't smart enough to detect the feint - all he knows is that if you move and he survives it, he should rush you. Sense a feint and a strike draw the same reaction every time, you might as well just punch the guy in the face. If you are clean and simple, you will overcome without broken rhythm.

If those clean and simple strikes hurt him, he may become afraid of you - making his response to both your feint and your strike cowering. If that is the case, sometimes feinting to draw out the cover and then hitting the opening can help you win faster.

 

[shs101]

The broken rhythm aspect is definetly interesting and machida is the first one I can think of in mma using this tactic. And obviously very good at it.

Anyone have any boxers that use this? Id love to watch it in a higher level boxing context

 

[peanut66]

that is not broken rythm , that is an illustration of feinting and hard feinting , i didnt watch the whole fight , but i didnt see not one example of broken rythm , maybe some change in tempo , but thats it

broken rythym is when the motion is halted or delayed and then resumed at a faster or slower speed , it is used to draw a counter , or to get the opponent to react to a different motion before you complete the attack

 

[devante]

most guys fight the same for the most part, w/obv differences being in size-skill-body type-phys ability; but most people in large part follow the same general blueprint in regards to when..how..and what situations they attack/counter/def.

So fighting in a rhythm or pace atypical to what you see 99% of the time is a huge adv as it makes it hard for a guy to really set things up, initiate things, or counter things because your doing things unevenly or unexpectedly. MACHIDA-JARDINE are two guys who whole career was made off of broken timing-awkward striking.

i use it alot, the only thing people credit me w/striking wise is the fact i am a)awkward in how i move and b)have a weird timing/rhythm; also i have broken rhythm in how i strike in that i go long periods just def..moving and then pot shot (after they get to used to me moving or baiting them w/no offense) or maybe long perieds of letting someone be off, then countering late (when they get lazy or too used to me not firing back).

It works esp well given my generally limited offensive toolset, yet i hit guys alot more than a guy who has my skillset and phys ability should; all due to timing, my ability to figure theirs and their inability to get mine because of off beat striking. Everyone who seen me spar in person or on video assume that i wouldn't touch them or get away from anything they do; because i don't seem particularly dynamic or skilled, an everyone is always shocked at how much they don't hit me (the way they want) and how clean i hit them when i actually throw. Not how hard, cus i ain't a big hitter lol.

 

[Bay Area]

Against the technically bad brawler, broken rhythm isn't as effective because he isn't smart enough to detect the feint - all he knows is that if you move and he survives it, he should rush you. Sense a feint and a strike draw the same reaction every time, you might as well just punch the guy in the face. If you are clean and simple, you will overcome without broken rhythm.

Beautiful post. In my experiene, the bad brawler will react to the feint, but not in the way you expect him too. He will react, but still my barrel forward out of frustration. Broken rhythm is most effective against someone who knows what he is doing. For example, If I feint with A, I expect my teamate/opponent to react with B, because we are both intelligent fighters. I then will counter with C, but he may expect C and attack with D. I know that he might expect C and use D, so I will offset D with E etc etc.

A good example of this is when I used to play Tekken Tag back in the day at the arcade. The button mashers/ beginners were always hard to fight against because they were so random and would not bite on any traps, because they were too stupid to do so.

 

[peanut66]

I think Broken Rhythm and striking power are two sides of the same coin. Without broken rhythm, it is harder to land a power shot. Without powerful striking, your opponent won't respect you and respond to your feints.

Generally, a clean shot can really hurt a much larger person. Once your striking is strong enough to hurt someone, broken rhythm is an important aspect because it is an element that lets you apply your mind along with your body against your opponent. You need that to overcome larger and stronger people usually.

I use it all the time the best I can.

I think the reason why you don't see it in MMA striking is because MMA striking is usually on a low level. What I think is interesting to watch is a technically good striker being outwitted by someone using broken rhythm. It rarely gets to that point though because what you usually have is a technically bad brawler running face first into basic strikes. Against the technically bad brawler, broken rhythm isn't as effective because he isn't smart enough to detect the feint - all he knows is that if you move and he survives it, he should rush you. Sense a feint and a strike draw the same reaction every time, you might as well just punch the guy in the face. If you are clean and simple, you will overcome without broken rhythm.

If those clean and simple strikes hurt him, he may become afraid of you - making his response to both your feint and your strike cowering. If that is the case, sometimes feinting to draw out the cover and then hitting the opening can help you win faster.

this is so wrong , its exact opposite of what you are stating here , im not trying to be argumentative , but it is for that precise reason that broken rythym steps and tactics were made , so they can be used on a brawler or counter fighter , it just depends on which one you use .

 

[devante]

that is not broken rythm , that is an illustration of feinting and hard feinting , i didnt watch the whole fight , but i didnt see not one example of broken rythm , maybe some change in tempo , but thats it

broken rythym is when the motion is halted or delayed and then resumed at a faster or slower speed , it is used to draw a counter , or to get the opponent to react to a different motion before you complete the attack

this sounds about right

 

[SummerStriker]

A good example of this is when I used to play Tekken Tag back in the day at the arcade. The button mashers/ beginners were always hard to fight against because they were so random and would not bite on any traps, because they were too stupid to do so.

Yeah, that's right on. The same thing is true in Soul Cal. Power block - light light heavy over and over to beat the button mashers.

I did a lot of stick sparring before I ever got interested in kick boxing. I had this move that worked like a charm on the experienced people. I'd do a fencing like stab at the belly, knowing they would parry it to the side. Then I'd just roll my wrist over into an overhand strike. One day a new guy came to sparring and I thought I'd use the move on him. He just stabs himself on my stick and hits me across the face about as hard as he could, so after 2 years of kali a n00b walks in an hammers me down.

Honestly, I think fighting beginners or "less skilled" people is really important, provided you can let them be themselves, because it fixes the impractical fancy mess of whatever crap you have been learning and teachers you about using different styles for different people.

 

[panamaican]

Yes, to both.

I got into the habit of broken rhythm when first learning drills. Everyone always performs their drills at the same speed and I thought it was a disservice to my partners, so I'd drill with completely different speeds and break combination drills with unexpected pauses.

After that, it just became part of how I think about fighting.

I think everyone who's done this martial arts thing for a while uses feints.

 

[SummerStriker]

this is so wrong , its exact opposite of what you are stating here , im not trying to be argumentative , but it is for that precise reason that broken rythym steps and tactics were made , so they can be used on a brawler or counter fighter , it just depends on which one you use .

I'm using the term brawler for someone who runs forward windmilling - not an exhaled experienced boxer people call a brawler. I agree with you about using these tactics on experienced and technical fighters.

 

[peanut66]

watch these videos and i will show you what broken rythm is and how it is used .at 5;40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


above is a video of fedor showing what we call a stutter step , it is not a switch kick , it is a stutter step and can be used as a motion to achieve broken rythm





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

this video shows fedor applying the stutter step when he knocks out pedro rizzo at 4;55


yes i use the stutter step alot , it can be combined with a kick or punch , in high level tkd it is used to flush out the spin hook or back kick , or sometimes just to see what the guy is up to


on a side note ; in fedors instructional video , most of the steps he uses and blocks are also used in tkd , he was showing stuff that we wroked on 25 years ago ,, which was kinda cool ,,, because he is fedor and all

 

[...El Ray]

I use feints and broken rhythm all day every day. It's sneaky. I like being sneaky.

 

[Bay Area]

that is not broken rythm

Yes it is silly bunz

 

[peanut66]

Yes it is silly bunz

i love you to , "bay"

 

[Bay Area]

most guys fight the same for the most part, w/obv differences being in size-skill-body type-phys ability; but most people in large part follow the same general blueprint in regards to when..how..and what situations they attack/counter/def.

So fighting in a rhythm or pace atypical to what you see 99% of the time is a huge adv as it makes it hard for a guy to really set things up, initiate things, or counter things because your doing things unevenly or unexpectedly. MACHIDA-JARDINE are two guys who whole career was made off of broken timing-awkward striking.

Yup. And then the entire league goes into a panic because none of the fighters can get a bead on the guy. Keith Jardine and Machida really shook things up

 

[Bay Area]

i love you to , "bay"

Alright then, explain how Fedor's leg kick vid is a definition of broken rhythm, and my TKD vid is not. Are we on the same sheet of music here?

 

[peanut66]

Alright then, explain how Fedor's leg kick vid is a definition of broken rhythm, and my TKD vid is not. Are we on the same sheet of music here?

feinting of a motion and actually starting the motion and changing the speed of attack is the difference ,

fedor hit rizzo with a low kick first , rizzo wanted to check the next kick so fedor started thestutter step kicking motion but then changed or " broke " the rythym of the motion and punched him in the face , the tkd guys didnt throw any attack , so it is a feint ,

sorry im being so particular on the wording , but when you are coaching someone the terminology has to be clear so that they do what you want them to do ,

greg jackson talked about broken rythym with cowboy cerrone , on how he would start to kick and pretend to abandon the kick and then resume it ,,, that is " broken rythym "

 

[aries]

^ Have to say I agree with that distinction. If you don't actually attack but just feint footwork that's not broken rhythm as I see it. Way I always understood broken rhythm was that each strike is a full beat, in music that would be a crotchet. A feint or pause can be used to introduce half beats like a quaver in music.

A typical 1-2-3 combination has the rhythm 1,1,1 but now add a pause in there so it's 1-2-pause-3 and the rhythm becomes 1,1,1/2,1. You could also use a feint as a half beat. A classic one is the 1-3 combination. You feint the 1 (jab) so it becomes quicker i.e. a half beat then throw the 3 (lead hook).

Your opponent expects a certain rhythm of full beats e.g. 1,1,1,1 for a four punch combination, if he can predict the rhythm he can defend in that rhythm but if you break that rhythm, he'll be out of sync with his defenses which will create openings. Take the Feint 1-3, he goes to parry the expected jab but gets a feint, and he isn't ready for your follow up hook which will go around his out of position glove.

 

[peanut66]

^ Have to say I agree with that distinction. If you don't actually attack but just feint footwork that's not broken rhythm as I see it. Way I always understood broken rhythm was that each strike is a full beat, in music that would be a crotchet. A feint or pause can be used to introduce half beats like a quaver in music.

A typical 1-2-3 combination has the rhythm 1,1,1 but now add a pause in there so it's 1-2-pause-3 and the rhythm becomes 1,1,1/2,1. You could also use a feint as a half beat. A classic one is the 1-3 combination. You feint the 1 (jab) so it becomes quicker i.e. a half beat then throw the 3 (lead hook).

Your opponent expects a certain rhythm of full beats e.g. 1,1,1,1 for a four punch combination, if he can predict the rhythm he can defend in that rhythm but if you break that rhythm, he'll be out of sync with his defenses which will create openings.

exactly , good analogy with the music ,, im sure there are lots of examples of broken rythm in boxing ,