Dextrose/Maltodextrin Question

[theNuge]

So, I was searching the PWO formulas and I found MadMick's custom formula thread. In there he created a mixture that contained a 2:1 ratio of protein:dextrose/maltodextrin. Dextrose and Maltodextrin are essentially just sugars. Why would I need sugar and carbohydrates to recover after a workout?

 

[Saith]

Because when you're working out you use all of the carbohydrates stored in your muscles and essentially they have no energy left in them. Using dextrose/maltodextrin peri/post WO allows your muscles to quickly replenish themselves and absorb protein more efficiently.

 

[Gavin LeFever]

If you take a carb+protein mix, the protein gets to your muscles faster than protein alone.

Think of it like Gatorade. Ever used it? It's pretty good. Gatorade + protein is basically what a good PWO shake is. We're just making our own "Gatorade" and running it with the protein one would usually take after a workout.

 

[theNuge]

So, making a custom shake mix with say some Creatine, BCAA's, <insert other good supplement>, protein, and carbohydrates would be a pretty good idea then? I'm asking because I noticed I could make a nice custom pretty cheap on True Protein.

 

[theNuge]

Oh, and thanks for the replies and I appreciate not getting flamed .

 

[MMA Monkey]

If you take a carb+protein mix, the protein gets to your muscles faster than protein alone.

Think of it like Gatorade. Ever used it? It's pretty good. Gatorade + protein is basically what a good PWO shake is. We're just making our own "Gatorade" and running it with the protein one would usually take after a workout.

follow question - does the quality of the carb make a difference - like pure sugars or fruit carbs compared to other carbs?

 

[MikeMartial]

follow question - does the quality of the carb make a difference - like pure sugars or fruit carbs compared to other carbs?

It does.

Here's a good article explaining why one should use both. It is bodybuilding based, but the explanations are excellent.


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/dextrose.htm

 

[WhiteLightning**]

This thread taught me quite a bit! I knew that simple carbs were necessary post workout to promote insulin response and replanish glycogen stores, but didn't know the difference between muscle glycogen and liver glycogen stores. In a related topic, how do I know what kinds of sugars are contained in fruits that I eat post workout, and is there a sort of dietary catalogue indicating which foods are sources of dextrose(which I now assume is SYNONYMOUS with glucose??) and which are sources of maltodextrin? I prefer to get all of my daily dietary requirements naturally, aside from hydrolyzed whey powders for their quick absorption rates. Is it necessary to make my entire post-workout carb serving out of dextrose and maltodextrin? Is there a cut-off point past which an excess of these relatively simple carbs are not able to be utilized for anabolism (i.e. the rest are stored as fat)? My post workout shakes generally contain 181 grams of carbohydrates on heavy lifting days, and about 148 grams of carbohydrates on my GPP/hypertrophy days. However, I generally derive about half or more of those carbs from whole wheat bread! So what's the word, will 181 grams of dextrose + maltodextrin REALLY be completely utilized for anabolism immediately post workout, assuming a low enough concentration of solute (i.e. drinking a WHOLE lot of water)?

 

[MikeMartial]

As a general rule, fruits contain fructose, and maltodextrin is a modified starch sugar. As far as a chart is concerned, there may be one floating around the web, but IMO, it's not needed.

The rest of your questions fall into "it depends on the individual" category; i.e how much you work out, your age, gender, basal metabolic rate, etc etc. That being said, you are consuming a shwackload of carbs PWO. And this is coming from a guy who's extremely carb tolerant.

It really doesn't need to be complex; in the FAQ, Madmick has an excellent thread on PWO nutrition, with a custiom formula that's highly effective.

It can be found here.

 

[Monger]

how do I know what kinds of sugars are contained in fruits that I eat post workout,

It's going to be a combination of fructose and glucose. I wouldn't eat too much fructose around your workout times but an apple or so is no big deal.

aside from hydrolyzed whey powders for their quick absorption rates.

The rationale used for the above statement can be the same used to justify carb supplementation.

Is it necessary to make my entire post-workout carb serving out of dextrose and maltodextrin?

Few things in life are necessary. With that said, some things are better than others. I would suggest you take some of your carbs during training... preferably the dex and malt... not so much the WW bread :icon_chee

Is there a cut-off point past which an excess of these relatively simple carbs are not able to be utilized for anabolism (i.e. the rest are stored as fat)?

Yes, and you're probably past it with your current intake. You may not be getting fat... that would depend on your daily lifestyle and genetics but I'd have to assume some of the 181 carbs are being stored as fat.

I've heard from several sources that the average person can only utilize 60grams of carbs per hour of exercise (I haven't seen studies regarding this though). That's on average... you may be able to handle more. It's also been discovered that most people don't continue to increase glycogen replenishment rates past .8g of carbs per kg of body weight post workout (With high GI carbs. Whole food may be different because of the extended digestion time.) With all of that out there... the most I would start off with is 1 gram of carb per minute of hard training and consume that during your workout. PWO, take .8g/kg BW of carbs. That will probably put you on the high end of carbs for complete utilization (assuming these are liquid carbs).

So what's the word, will 181 grams of dextrose + maltodextrin REALLY be completely utilized for anabolism immediately post workout, assuming a low enough concentration of solute (i.e. drinking a WHOLE lot of water)?

No way would I do that. Even a lot of the hardcore guys don't exceed 100g post workout.

 

[WhiteLightning**]

Very informative! I'm almost as saturated with useful information as I am with carbs now!

Although I have had some VERY fat periods in my life (due to shit nutrition) I think I actually have a mesomorph's metabolism, as I have been eating these loads of carbs consistently for several months while gaining only five pounds (and becoming slightly leaner). This, combined with every-other-daily HIIT workouts to complement my 3-a-week lifting days have kept the fat off. I now intend to mix up some dex and malt and hydrolyzed whey in water, at the proper ratios, to sip on during workouts, per the info you provided me. So possibly 30g dex + 30g malt + 30g hydrolyzed whey for a peri-workout?

 

[erco]

Unless you weigh 220+ lbs, 90g combined Peri-workout nutrition is a bit much. That's about as much as a I do post-workout and I consider my post-workout shake a meal.

I do 3:1 carbs to protein in my peri-workout drink, along with a healthy serving of BCAA's. Breakdown is roughly 24g carbs, 8g protein, 10g BCAA's.

 

[Monger]

Unless you weigh 220+ lbs, 90g combined Peri-workout nutrition is a bit much. That's about as much as a I do post-workout and I consider my post-workout shake a meal.

I do 3:1 carbs to protein in my peri-workout drink, along with a healthy serving of BCAA's. Breakdown is roughly 24g carbs, 8g protein, 10g BCAA's.

I think it depends on the activity a little. *If* Berardi and a few of the other sources I've seen is correct... 60g of carbs is completely doable for a solid hour of training but that's if it's pretty much non-stop (I've normally seen this amount referenced to endurance athletes like marathon runners). I'm drawing a little of my own theory into this as well so it could certainly be flawed.

My opinion is that most people may train for an hour but there might only be 30-45mins there of actual hard work. So in that essence, I agree with you that 60g may be a bit much (I'm not sure about the protein portion and how quickly that's utilized so I can't comment on that).

My other theory is that I don't feel as much carbs are needed PWO if carbs are taken during training. The numbers I threw out there was meant to be the high side of doable and leaning towards extreme, which isn't where I would start. I like erco's formula. ~30g of carbs along with 10-15g of protein and/or BCAA's should be sufficient for most people