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Warning: TLDR here.
Today :[USA NHB Scene]
UFC 5, Requiem for The Vale Tudo Era...
Myth 1: Ken exposed BJJ´s guard in the 2nd Hoyce fight.
Myth 2: Ken would have clearly won it if there had been judges.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
Like in all these Decons., this is all about Fight Configuration & Skill Set Evolution...
1/ Ken exposed BJJ´s guard in the 2nd Hoyce fight?
Between UFC 1 & UFC 5, Ken had basically 2 years to study Hoyce´s game.
He was injured at UFC 2, but still during an interview at ringside, he stated that he was workin´ on his game, and that he would come back with some kind of "master plan". That was obviously hinted at Hoyce.
As a matter of fact, he even :
> hired a judo guy for the camp.
> went to the Machados´ Academy with Funaki to learn more about grapplin´ with/against the Gi (without much success)...
Ken came in lighter in this 2nd fight, but the size difference was still real, basically a WW vs a LHW:
Jus´ B4 the fight, Ken acknowledged that he "couldnt make any mistake during the fight".
He also said some puzzlin´ things, like maybe he wouldnt automatically look for top position, since "Hoyce was better underneath"...
Still, at UFC 5, he didnt really go for the win, he definitely wanted the draw [a 'moral´ victory, somehow...], thus he L&Ped, didnt mount any serious offense.
While in Hoyce´s guard, Ken literally spent the whole time with his left hand protectin´ his neck (!), while his right hand would hit Hoyce mainly in the ribs or side of the head, with some [weak] headbutts here & there...
He didnt try to pass guard, didnt really posture up (even in the additional time, when he was supposed to capitalize on his 'strategy').
During the regular time, this is the closest he was to mount any serious offense:
Ironically, NHB Ken & Pancrase Ken were 2 different animals...
@ UFC 1, Ken didnt win coz of Rorion, jetlag, GI or shoes etc...
Ken lost coz he entered this fight with a Pancrase mindset, not a NHB one.
Had he fought like Tadeu fought against Pitanguy, he could have won.
The Renan Pitanguy [BJJ] X Eugênio Tadeu [MT/Luta Livre] fight should be a reference to understand what happened, and could/should have happened @ UFC 1.
The size difference between Tadeu and Pitanguy is similar to the one between Ken and Hoyce. Heck, I would even say that Ken had a bigger size advantage, and his strength was even more enhanced coz of the juice (see Oleg´s statement about his fight vs Ken: Ken was too strong to roll with, because of the juice).
Tadeu was supposed to have his guard passed left & right, jus´like the other Luta Livre dudes.
Important: Tadeu didnt win the Pitanguy fight in the guard. He dictated where the fight took place and mauled him on the feet.
Ken could/should have dictated where the fight was takin´place, but he chose to operate within a Pancrase-like Fight Configuration.
And that´s almost what happened @ UFC 5, in the extra time:
Ken´s right hand did legit damage, and he could have kept the fight on the feet, but he again chose to go to the ground and play it safe, merely tryin´ to capitalize on the cut with some headbutts:
Again, no guard-passin´, no posturin´up, no submission attempts...even though he claimed that he would wear Hoyce down b4 submittin´ him. And the victory was realistically up for grabs at that moment.
But, jus´like against Oleg, Ken remained 'conservative' on the ground, not willing to take any risk against a dangerous guard...Unless it is in the very last seconds of the fight [extra time, again, 3 mns]:
After UFC 1, Ken would no longer sacrifice position over submission.
Consequently, Ken didnt expose Hoyce´s BJJ guard, since the only legit offense he mounted was on the feet.
What he said after the 2nd Severn fight basically sealed UFC 5´s legacy:
"You watch the fight, anybody will tell you strategy had nothing to do with that. If you call running on the outside of the ring with a smaller opponent and you're basically world class wrestler, where you should be able to take the guy down when you want to take him down and you are running from him... I'm not sure where that plays in to being strategic."
It literally means that, according to him, Beast being the bigger man, HAD TO TAKE THE INITIATIVE.
On a side note: his own corner expected more:
Excerpts from Big John McCarthy's book "Let's get it on":
On the Ken Shamrock vs Hoyce Gracie rematch : "The fight was simply coma inducing, but I was able to laugh in the middle of it all when Bob Shamrock, Ken's feisty adoptive father, finally grew frustrated with his son's tactics and yelled, Well, if you're just going to lay there with him, you might as well start kissing him.; The always stoic Hoyce looked at the elder Shamrock and then at Ken and said, Please don't do that."
Ken could have easily postured up, Hoyce would hardly keep a [tight] closed guard in the additional time...:
2/ Ken would have clearly won if there had been judges?
CONTEXT:
The UFC was still a rookie Org., and they were tryin´to figure things out.
The Vale Tudo universe had to be adapted to a new reality.
Even the initial rules were pretty loose...
"Unlimited" number of 5-mns rounds were supposed to be the norm, but in reality it was still a Vale Tudo Fight Configuration imported from Brazil.
And no judges were supposed to score the fight and declare a winner.
Chronology:
The last fight without a time limit in the UFC was between Hoyce Gracie and Dan Severn at UFC 4.
UFC 5 > The organizers introduced a 30-minute time limit.
UFC 6 > In UFC 6 they officially adopted the 5 minute extension to the 30 minute rule which had been used in UFC 5.
UFC 6 > The referee was given the authority to restart the fight. If two fighters were entangled in a position where there was a lack of action, the referee could stop the fight and restart the competitors on their feet, in their own corner.
UFC 21 > 5 minute rounds were introduced, with preliminary bouts consisting of two rounds, regular non-title bouts at three rounds, and title bouts at 5 five minute rounds. The "10 point must system" was introduced for scoring fights (identical to the system widely used in boxing).
Now, had there been a winner declared by judges, it would have logically occured at the end of the regular time [30 mns]... Not at the end of the 30+5= 35 mns.
But, scorin´ this fight at the end of the regular time was kindah tricky...
Not an easy fight to score: very little [legit] damage done, Ken basically L&Pin´, scorin´mainly with [weak] headbutts and some shots to the ribs or the head, while Hoyce was scorin´ with heel kicks, one elbow, some punches to the head, and slaps to the head, mainly...
Not much to score... Unless you consider that Ground Controle is enough to steal the win...
Even the TDs were arguably more about Hoyce pullin´guard...
Reminder 1: Ken´s right hand happened in extra time.
Reminder 2: Later in Pride, Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...because of Pride´s [complex] Scoring System...
Indeed, Takada did absolutely nothing, but Ken hardly did more durin´ his GNP, as stated earlier in this thread.
Now, it´s also true that Hoyce didnt do enough damage from the bottom too, or had any legit submission attempt.
In other words, that was hardly a Bas vs Randleman situation too.
Obviously, not all draws are equal...
SAKU G. got the draw against Alan Goes, even though he arguably lost (no judges, was ruled a Draw...but even SAKU acknowledged it...).
Still, both fighters were game, tryin´to go for the finish.
3/ Aftermath: The End of An Era...
BJJ´s guard became problematic because of the rules/fight configuration:
Modern MMA [UFC´s in particular]´s fight configuration [time limit / short rounds] and judging criterias [Ground Control being the Main Paradigm, no reward for submission attempts] make it difficult to commit to particular submissions.
In a NHB/Vale Tudo Fight Configuration @ Open Weight, the only chance for the smaller guy is the No Time Limit.
This was basically the GJJ Community´s stance since the 1930s.
Otherwise, you have a Ken vs Hoyce 2 or Kerr vs Gurgel situation: the much bigger dude L&P/secures the Ground Control, throws some headbutts here and there, takes no risks and waits for the end of the scheduled time limit.
It´s not realistic to expect the smaller Hoyce to go for a kimura, triangle, etc..while Ken takes absoluteky no risks with his hands/arms, buryin´his head in Hoyce´s chest, not even tryin´ to posture up/pass guard...
The main crisis happened years ago, when the BJJ MMA community understood that fights at Open Weight were no longer realistic against huge HWs monsters like Erickson,Coleman or Kerr.
Carlson was already clashing with the traditional ol´school philosophy (he had an argument with Hoyler about it, when he challenged the heaviest dudes of his gym, like Sperry).
The transition happened after 2 fights:
Erickson´s draw against Bustamante in Nov. 1996
Kerr´s win against Gurgel in Jan 1997.
A specific Fight Configuration [NHB/Vale Tudo/With Time Limit/Headbutts Allowed] proved to be lethal.
Kerr´s mauling of Gurgel changed the paradigm in the BJJ Community, where people used to believe that technique was enough to overcome the size difference...
The BJJ Community claimed that Bustamante´s draw was somehow a 'moral victory', but the truth is that Busta couldnt take Big Cat to the ground, while the wrassler didnt want to take any risk in the Brazilian´s guard...
2 months that changed the BJJ MMA community.
CONTEXT: Interviews: [1997-1998]
Today :[USA NHB Scene]
UFC 5, Requiem for The Vale Tudo Era...
Myth 1: Ken exposed BJJ´s guard in the 2nd Hoyce fight.
Myth 2: Ken would have clearly won it if there had been judges.
Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...art-36-the-best-base-special-edition.4013527/
Like in all these Decons., this is all about Fight Configuration & Skill Set Evolution...
1/ Ken exposed BJJ´s guard in the 2nd Hoyce fight?
Between UFC 1 & UFC 5, Ken had basically 2 years to study Hoyce´s game.
He was injured at UFC 2, but still during an interview at ringside, he stated that he was workin´ on his game, and that he would come back with some kind of "master plan". That was obviously hinted at Hoyce.
As a matter of fact, he even :
> hired a judo guy for the camp.
> went to the Machados´ Academy with Funaki to learn more about grapplin´ with/against the Gi (without much success)...
Ken came in lighter in this 2nd fight, but the size difference was still real, basically a WW vs a LHW:
> Even though you didn’t end up competing in UFC 2, you obviously wanted Hoyce and trained for that potential match. By the time of this show- four months after UFC 1- do you remember any kind of specific strategy you might have had if you were to meet Hoyce that night?
KEN: "Well, I know this– after the very first time that I faced him, I understood that I underestimated the gi- didn’t truly understand what it was capable of doing. I also didn’t understand the importance of the shoe or even the experience of having no shoe, and being able to practice in a canvas ring so that you could understand what you could or could not do. These are things that I’d learned when I had lost that fight with Hoyce- was the understanding of how important it was to be prepared going in to a fight for a style and also equipment, so I made sure that there were no surprises, and that I understood Hoyce’s gi and the style that they used it in, very well. So, for the second one- I was already in great shape- I already went forty-six minutes over in Japan- straight, with no rounds, so I knew I was in great shape to go an hour or two hour fight if I had to.
So, even as I prepared for Hoyce in the second UFC even though we didn’t meet, my whole thing was I wanted to just completely nullify the Gracie myth of anybody, anywhere, anytime, no matter what size they are, and that their submission and their style is the best. I was just gonna wear him down. And again, I had the same plan after that for the next one after that- I just wanted to destroy him, I wanted to be in better shape, I wanted to wear him down, I wanted him to not be able to move, and then I was going to submit him."
KEN: "Well, I know this– after the very first time that I faced him, I understood that I underestimated the gi- didn’t truly understand what it was capable of doing. I also didn’t understand the importance of the shoe or even the experience of having no shoe, and being able to practice in a canvas ring so that you could understand what you could or could not do. These are things that I’d learned when I had lost that fight with Hoyce- was the understanding of how important it was to be prepared going in to a fight for a style and also equipment, so I made sure that there were no surprises, and that I understood Hoyce’s gi and the style that they used it in, very well. So, for the second one- I was already in great shape- I already went forty-six minutes over in Japan- straight, with no rounds, so I knew I was in great shape to go an hour or two hour fight if I had to.
So, even as I prepared for Hoyce in the second UFC even though we didn’t meet, my whole thing was I wanted to just completely nullify the Gracie myth of anybody, anywhere, anytime, no matter what size they are, and that their submission and their style is the best. I was just gonna wear him down. And again, I had the same plan after that for the next one after that- I just wanted to destroy him, I wanted to be in better shape, I wanted to wear him down, I wanted him to not be able to move, and then I was going to submit him."
Jus´ B4 the fight, Ken acknowledged that he "couldnt make any mistake during the fight".
He also said some puzzlin´ things, like maybe he wouldnt automatically look for top position, since "Hoyce was better underneath"...
Still, at UFC 5, he didnt really go for the win, he definitely wanted the draw [a 'moral´ victory, somehow...], thus he L&Ped, didnt mount any serious offense.
While in Hoyce´s guard, Ken literally spent the whole time with his left hand protectin´ his neck (!), while his right hand would hit Hoyce mainly in the ribs or side of the head, with some [weak] headbutts here & there...
He didnt try to pass guard, didnt really posture up (even in the additional time, when he was supposed to capitalize on his 'strategy').
During the regular time, this is the closest he was to mount any serious offense:
Ironically, NHB Ken & Pancrase Ken were 2 different animals...
@ UFC 1, Ken didnt win coz of Rorion, jetlag, GI or shoes etc...
Ken lost coz he entered this fight with a Pancrase mindset, not a NHB one.
Had he fought like Tadeu fought against Pitanguy, he could have won.
The Renan Pitanguy [BJJ] X Eugênio Tadeu [MT/Luta Livre] fight should be a reference to understand what happened, and could/should have happened @ UFC 1.
The size difference between Tadeu and Pitanguy is similar to the one between Ken and Hoyce. Heck, I would even say that Ken had a bigger size advantage, and his strength was even more enhanced coz of the juice (see Oleg´s statement about his fight vs Ken: Ken was too strong to roll with, because of the juice).
Tadeu was supposed to have his guard passed left & right, jus´like the other Luta Livre dudes.
Important: Tadeu didnt win the Pitanguy fight in the guard. He dictated where the fight took place and mauled him on the feet.
Ken could/should have dictated where the fight was takin´place, but he chose to operate within a Pancrase-like Fight Configuration.
And that´s almost what happened @ UFC 5, in the extra time:
Ken´s right hand did legit damage, and he could have kept the fight on the feet, but he again chose to go to the ground and play it safe, merely tryin´ to capitalize on the cut with some headbutts:
Again, no guard-passin´, no posturin´up, no submission attempts...even though he claimed that he would wear Hoyce down b4 submittin´ him. And the victory was realistically up for grabs at that moment.
But, jus´like against Oleg, Ken remained 'conservative' on the ground, not willing to take any risk against a dangerous guard...Unless it is in the very last seconds of the fight [extra time, again, 3 mns]:
After UFC 1, Ken would no longer sacrifice position over submission.
Consequently, Ken didnt expose Hoyce´s BJJ guard, since the only legit offense he mounted was on the feet.
What he said after the 2nd Severn fight basically sealed UFC 5´s legacy:
"You watch the fight, anybody will tell you strategy had nothing to do with that. If you call running on the outside of the ring with a smaller opponent and you're basically world class wrestler, where you should be able to take the guy down when you want to take him down and you are running from him... I'm not sure where that plays in to being strategic."
It literally means that, according to him, Beast being the bigger man, HAD TO TAKE THE INITIATIVE.
On a side note: his own corner expected more:
Excerpts from Big John McCarthy's book "Let's get it on":
On the Ken Shamrock vs Hoyce Gracie rematch : "The fight was simply coma inducing, but I was able to laugh in the middle of it all when Bob Shamrock, Ken's feisty adoptive father, finally grew frustrated with his son's tactics and yelled, Well, if you're just going to lay there with him, you might as well start kissing him.; The always stoic Hoyce looked at the elder Shamrock and then at Ken and said, Please don't do that."
Ken could have easily postured up, Hoyce would hardly keep a [tight] closed guard in the additional time...:
2/ Ken would have clearly won if there had been judges?
CONTEXT:
The UFC was still a rookie Org., and they were tryin´to figure things out.
The Vale Tudo universe had to be adapted to a new reality.
Even the initial rules were pretty loose...
"Unlimited" number of 5-mns rounds were supposed to be the norm, but in reality it was still a Vale Tudo Fight Configuration imported from Brazil.
And no judges were supposed to score the fight and declare a winner.
Chronology:
The last fight without a time limit in the UFC was between Hoyce Gracie and Dan Severn at UFC 4.
UFC 5 > The organizers introduced a 30-minute time limit.
UFC 6 > In UFC 6 they officially adopted the 5 minute extension to the 30 minute rule which had been used in UFC 5.
UFC 6 > The referee was given the authority to restart the fight. If two fighters were entangled in a position where there was a lack of action, the referee could stop the fight and restart the competitors on their feet, in their own corner.
UFC 21 > 5 minute rounds were introduced, with preliminary bouts consisting of two rounds, regular non-title bouts at three rounds, and title bouts at 5 five minute rounds. The "10 point must system" was introduced for scoring fights (identical to the system widely used in boxing).
Now, had there been a winner declared by judges, it would have logically occured at the end of the regular time [30 mns]... Not at the end of the 30+5= 35 mns.
But, scorin´ this fight at the end of the regular time was kindah tricky...
Not an easy fight to score: very little [legit] damage done, Ken basically L&Pin´, scorin´mainly with [weak] headbutts and some shots to the ribs or the head, while Hoyce was scorin´ with heel kicks, one elbow, some punches to the head, and slaps to the head, mainly...
Not much to score... Unless you consider that Ground Controle is enough to steal the win...
Even the TDs were arguably more about Hoyce pullin´guard...
Reminder 1: Ken´s right hand happened in extra time.
Reminder 2: Later in Pride, Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...because of Pride´s [complex] Scoring System...
Indeed, Takada did absolutely nothing, but Ken hardly did more durin´ his GNP, as stated earlier in this thread.
Now, it´s also true that Hoyce didnt do enough damage from the bottom too, or had any legit submission attempt.
In other words, that was hardly a Bas vs Randleman situation too.
Obviously, not all draws are equal...
SAKU G. got the draw against Alan Goes, even though he arguably lost (no judges, was ruled a Draw...but even SAKU acknowledged it...).
Still, both fighters were game, tryin´to go for the finish.
3/ Aftermath: The End of An Era...
BJJ´s guard became problematic because of the rules/fight configuration:
Modern MMA [UFC´s in particular]´s fight configuration [time limit / short rounds] and judging criterias [Ground Control being the Main Paradigm, no reward for submission attempts] make it difficult to commit to particular submissions.
In a NHB/Vale Tudo Fight Configuration @ Open Weight, the only chance for the smaller guy is the No Time Limit.
This was basically the GJJ Community´s stance since the 1930s.
Otherwise, you have a Ken vs Hoyce 2 or Kerr vs Gurgel situation: the much bigger dude L&P/secures the Ground Control, throws some headbutts here and there, takes no risks and waits for the end of the scheduled time limit.
It´s not realistic to expect the smaller Hoyce to go for a kimura, triangle, etc..while Ken takes absoluteky no risks with his hands/arms, buryin´his head in Hoyce´s chest, not even tryin´ to posture up/pass guard...
The main crisis happened years ago, when the BJJ MMA community understood that fights at Open Weight were no longer realistic against huge HWs monsters like Erickson,Coleman or Kerr.
Carlson was already clashing with the traditional ol´school philosophy (he had an argument with Hoyler about it, when he challenged the heaviest dudes of his gym, like Sperry).
The transition happened after 2 fights:
Erickson´s draw against Bustamante in Nov. 1996
Kerr´s win against Gurgel in Jan 1997.
A specific Fight Configuration [NHB/Vale Tudo/With Time Limit/Headbutts Allowed] proved to be lethal.
Kerr´s mauling of Gurgel changed the paradigm in the BJJ Community, where people used to believe that technique was enough to overcome the size difference...
The BJJ Community claimed that Bustamante´s draw was somehow a 'moral victory', but the truth is that Busta couldnt take Big Cat to the ground, while the wrassler didnt want to take any risk in the Brazilian´s guard...
2 months that changed the BJJ MMA community.
CONTEXT: Interviews: [1997-1998]
Carlson Gracie:
> What do you think of the wrestling fighters?
CARLSON GRACIE: "Wrestling is a hard fight. The guys are very strong and have excellent technique for takedowns, and they make it very hard to win. Of course in the same weight category, Jiu-Jitsu is better.
You see, Fabio Gurgel fought a guy that weighed 30Kg (66lbs) more than him. Murilo, against a monster with 40Kg (88Lbs) more. This Tom Erickson is the most dangerous Vale-Tudo fighter out there. Not forgetting to mention that these guys train in everything: Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, etc. not only in wrestling.
You can't keep giving the advantage of weight to them."
Hickson Gracie:
> Are you helping Fabio Gurgel for UFC 11? In your opinion what are Gurgel's chances against Coleman?
HICKSON GRACIE: "Gurgel's risk is the time limit. I'm sure that Coleman can't beat Gurgel. He has the potential to become a star."
Hickson & Hoyler Gracie:
> What do you think of the UFC?
HICKSON GRACIE: "I think it's never easy to do a NHB fight. 3 in the same night is even harder. The guy should have a good head, be technical, strong and ready for that. You don't put a truck driver in the UFC.
The problem with the event is the time limits. When you use weight categories, then we can talk about time limits. Something I will never do is fight a guy that's 120kg with time limits. Now you may ask: Would you fight anyone in the UFC. Yes without time limits."
> Why?
HICKSON GRACIE: "With time limits it may be a draw. I am technical and I trust 100% in my ability to win. 10, 20 or 30 mins. To beat a guy who weighs 50kg more than you and is an olympic champion may be a bit too much. I'm not saying that he would win but I may not win with the time limits."
HOYLER GRACIE: "If we have a good offer to fight a guy for 5 min we wouldn't accept, and we are not going against our principles."
Horion Gracie:
> Do you think any Gracie will ever return to the UFC? The competition now is much greater with guys like Frank Shamrock.
HORION GRACIE: "There is a possibility. We still have a problem with time limits and judges."
HOYCE GRACIE: "Im already conceding the weight difference, they have to give me something!"
> Will Hoyce Gracie ever fight again in the UFC or any other no holds barred event?
HOYCE GRACIE: "Yes, I'm not retired."
> Will it be the UFC?
HOYCE GRACIE: "Maybe, except right now they're putting so many rules that the fighters are fighting against the rule book.
They're not fighting against each other. They're fighting against the clock.
Now they come in to survive those thirty minutes. [They] don't come in to fight anymore, they come in for the draw. A lot of the fighters are playing for the draw. They're fighting for the judges. I'm sorry, I can't fight like that. That's B.S."
> Do you think fighters have gotten better since you fought in the Octagon?
HOYCE GRACIE: "No, it's not because of that. People say Hoyce is not fighting because the fighters got better. Wait a minute - you're telling me that Dan Severn got better? In what?! Did you see the Ultimate, Ultimate? How did he beat everybody - by getting on top of them and pounding them down? Is that any better?! You're telling me that Shamrock got better? He laid underneath Severn and was destroyed by him in 30 seconds, so that means he is getting better? He doesn't know anything from the bottom. You're telling me that Amaury Bitetti is the best fighter of all time?! He was about to get knocked out! The promoters say that he is the best of all time, ever. Far beyond everybody else. Look at that. You're telling me that those guys are getting better. No, sorry. They're not!"
> They say the Octagon is no longer a very soft mat, but a much harder mat. Would the change in surface make a difference for you?
HOYCE GRACIE: "It was a hard mat back then. It's plywood with one of those inch foam pads - the type they put under carpet. They put that over plywood. People make all kinds of excuses - Hoyce is not fighting because now it's a hard floor ... I'm not fighting because of the time limit and the rules. Now the fighters are playing against the time limit and against the judges. They don't fight against me."
> The judges and time limit seem to be the main reason you're not fighting in the Octagon. Would you expand on the concerns you have with judges and time limits?
HOYCE GRACIE: "If I [was to] drop you in the middle of the ocean and you look around and there is only water, most of the people - 99 percent - would drown on the first night. If I drop you in the ocean and fly away but tell you I'm coming back the next day to pick you up, you don't have to go anywhere, just float around the entire day. I'll come back and pick you up and you'll be there waiting for me. That's what the fighters are doing now. They know there is a time limit. If you put a two-hour time limit they will do the same thing like Shamrock and Severn did. And like what Shamrock did to me. In UFC IX, Shamrock didn't want to fight, Severn didn't want to fight. They both came in with the same mentality. Let's play for the draw, let's see who the judges are going to give it to. It was a very boring fight. Everybody was booing; very bad fight."
> The UFC hasn't been the same since you have fought. Many people are upset that you're no longer fighting.
HOYCE GRACIE: "If you put a two-hour time limit, they will still do the same thing today. They will stand around for two hours. You put three hours they will do the same.
If you take the time limit out, they have to fight. Somebody has to win. There's no judges; you have to win.
Change the mentality of the game. Now you have to come in to fight. Once you put a judge, you put a time limit. Like in boxing - the guy starts to lose, he starts to play defense. He wants to go the distance now, he wants to lose by points. So then he cans say the judges didn't like me. Instead come in and try to exchange and get knocked out. As soon as you put a time limit and judges, you change the entire mentality of the fighting. I'm against that."
> Did the UFC people approach you with a deal to fight a superfight with either Shamrock or Severn around UFC 7? Offering in excess of $200,000 and changing the rules, giving you a long time limit.
HOYCE GRACIE: "The problem with the time limit..if I drop you in the ocean, and say, "My friend, I'll pick you up in 3 hours." You're gonna say, "Gee, okay, I'll hang around here for 3 hours, I'll float for 3 hours." You look around, there is no land, you gonna float for 3 hours. But, if I drop you in the ocean and I say, "Goodbye," you don't know if I'm coming back to save you or not, you have to find land. You have to choose a direction, and start to swim. Now darkness comes, you don't know if the whales are coming. You don't know if the sharks are coming, what animals are gonna show up in front of you, if you gonna get tired, if you gonna find land or not, if there's a ship coming...all those factors come in play now. So, in the moment that they say, Hoyce, fight, but the time limit's 1 hour." They know that they cannot beat me, so they hang around for an hour..."Time is over, Yeah! I'm the best, I draw with the champion!"..get the F outta here.
What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE GRACIE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Hoyce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Hoyce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
Halph Gracie:
> How would you handle a match against a large grappler (ie. Severn or Coleman)?
HALPH GRACIE: "Use my speed to take their back or I might fight out of the guard. I have fought many a big guy before, including much bigger family members, and this plan will work.
Our families system of fighting allows us to take on much larger opponents. In Brazil it is common to see fights with big guys fighting smaller guys. As long as their is no time limit I have no problem with a bigger guy."
> What do you think of Hoyce's refusal to fight in the UFC under time limits, since you do so regularly under EF rules?
HALPH GRACIE: "He is very smart. Why fight with time limits."
Marco Huas interview right before UFC 7 [1995]:
MARCO HUAS: "If we are even in grappling, then we must fight standing. When you are grappling there is a chance to stand up, if you refuse to be caught in a submission or chokehold. The losers to the Gracie's have so far been taken down. They could not stand up again. That is the problem.
The Gracie's adhere to no time limits as they do not want their opponents to stand up again."
> What do you think of the wrestling fighters?
CARLSON GRACIE: "Wrestling is a hard fight. The guys are very strong and have excellent technique for takedowns, and they make it very hard to win. Of course in the same weight category, Jiu-Jitsu is better.
You see, Fabio Gurgel fought a guy that weighed 30Kg (66lbs) more than him. Murilo, against a monster with 40Kg (88Lbs) more. This Tom Erickson is the most dangerous Vale-Tudo fighter out there. Not forgetting to mention that these guys train in everything: Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, etc. not only in wrestling.
You can't keep giving the advantage of weight to them."
Hickson Gracie:
> Are you helping Fabio Gurgel for UFC 11? In your opinion what are Gurgel's chances against Coleman?
HICKSON GRACIE: "Gurgel's risk is the time limit. I'm sure that Coleman can't beat Gurgel. He has the potential to become a star."
Hickson & Hoyler Gracie:
> What do you think of the UFC?
HICKSON GRACIE: "I think it's never easy to do a NHB fight. 3 in the same night is even harder. The guy should have a good head, be technical, strong and ready for that. You don't put a truck driver in the UFC.
The problem with the event is the time limits. When you use weight categories, then we can talk about time limits. Something I will never do is fight a guy that's 120kg with time limits. Now you may ask: Would you fight anyone in the UFC. Yes without time limits."
> Why?
HICKSON GRACIE: "With time limits it may be a draw. I am technical and I trust 100% in my ability to win. 10, 20 or 30 mins. To beat a guy who weighs 50kg more than you and is an olympic champion may be a bit too much. I'm not saying that he would win but I may not win with the time limits."
HOYLER GRACIE: "If we have a good offer to fight a guy for 5 min we wouldn't accept, and we are not going against our principles."
Horion Gracie:
> Do you think any Gracie will ever return to the UFC? The competition now is much greater with guys like Frank Shamrock.
HORION GRACIE: "There is a possibility. We still have a problem with time limits and judges."
HOYCE GRACIE: "Im already conceding the weight difference, they have to give me something!"
> Will Hoyce Gracie ever fight again in the UFC or any other no holds barred event?
HOYCE GRACIE: "Yes, I'm not retired."
> Will it be the UFC?
HOYCE GRACIE: "Maybe, except right now they're putting so many rules that the fighters are fighting against the rule book.
They're not fighting against each other. They're fighting against the clock.
Now they come in to survive those thirty minutes. [They] don't come in to fight anymore, they come in for the draw. A lot of the fighters are playing for the draw. They're fighting for the judges. I'm sorry, I can't fight like that. That's B.S."
> Do you think fighters have gotten better since you fought in the Octagon?
HOYCE GRACIE: "No, it's not because of that. People say Hoyce is not fighting because the fighters got better. Wait a minute - you're telling me that Dan Severn got better? In what?! Did you see the Ultimate, Ultimate? How did he beat everybody - by getting on top of them and pounding them down? Is that any better?! You're telling me that Shamrock got better? He laid underneath Severn and was destroyed by him in 30 seconds, so that means he is getting better? He doesn't know anything from the bottom. You're telling me that Amaury Bitetti is the best fighter of all time?! He was about to get knocked out! The promoters say that he is the best of all time, ever. Far beyond everybody else. Look at that. You're telling me that those guys are getting better. No, sorry. They're not!"
> They say the Octagon is no longer a very soft mat, but a much harder mat. Would the change in surface make a difference for you?
HOYCE GRACIE: "It was a hard mat back then. It's plywood with one of those inch foam pads - the type they put under carpet. They put that over plywood. People make all kinds of excuses - Hoyce is not fighting because now it's a hard floor ... I'm not fighting because of the time limit and the rules. Now the fighters are playing against the time limit and against the judges. They don't fight against me."
> The judges and time limit seem to be the main reason you're not fighting in the Octagon. Would you expand on the concerns you have with judges and time limits?
HOYCE GRACIE: "If I [was to] drop you in the middle of the ocean and you look around and there is only water, most of the people - 99 percent - would drown on the first night. If I drop you in the ocean and fly away but tell you I'm coming back the next day to pick you up, you don't have to go anywhere, just float around the entire day. I'll come back and pick you up and you'll be there waiting for me. That's what the fighters are doing now. They know there is a time limit. If you put a two-hour time limit they will do the same thing like Shamrock and Severn did. And like what Shamrock did to me. In UFC IX, Shamrock didn't want to fight, Severn didn't want to fight. They both came in with the same mentality. Let's play for the draw, let's see who the judges are going to give it to. It was a very boring fight. Everybody was booing; very bad fight."
> The UFC hasn't been the same since you have fought. Many people are upset that you're no longer fighting.
HOYCE GRACIE: "If you put a two-hour time limit, they will still do the same thing today. They will stand around for two hours. You put three hours they will do the same.
If you take the time limit out, they have to fight. Somebody has to win. There's no judges; you have to win.
Change the mentality of the game. Now you have to come in to fight. Once you put a judge, you put a time limit. Like in boxing - the guy starts to lose, he starts to play defense. He wants to go the distance now, he wants to lose by points. So then he cans say the judges didn't like me. Instead come in and try to exchange and get knocked out. As soon as you put a time limit and judges, you change the entire mentality of the fighting. I'm against that."
> Did the UFC people approach you with a deal to fight a superfight with either Shamrock or Severn around UFC 7? Offering in excess of $200,000 and changing the rules, giving you a long time limit.
HOYCE GRACIE: "The problem with the time limit..if I drop you in the ocean, and say, "My friend, I'll pick you up in 3 hours." You're gonna say, "Gee, okay, I'll hang around here for 3 hours, I'll float for 3 hours." You look around, there is no land, you gonna float for 3 hours. But, if I drop you in the ocean and I say, "Goodbye," you don't know if I'm coming back to save you or not, you have to find land. You have to choose a direction, and start to swim. Now darkness comes, you don't know if the whales are coming. You don't know if the sharks are coming, what animals are gonna show up in front of you, if you gonna get tired, if you gonna find land or not, if there's a ship coming...all those factors come in play now. So, in the moment that they say, Hoyce, fight, but the time limit's 1 hour." They know that they cannot beat me, so they hang around for an hour..."Time is over, Yeah! I'm the best, I draw with the champion!"..get the F outta here.
What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE GRACIE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Hoyce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Hoyce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
Halph Gracie:
> How would you handle a match against a large grappler (ie. Severn or Coleman)?
HALPH GRACIE: "Use my speed to take their back or I might fight out of the guard. I have fought many a big guy before, including much bigger family members, and this plan will work.
Our families system of fighting allows us to take on much larger opponents. In Brazil it is common to see fights with big guys fighting smaller guys. As long as their is no time limit I have no problem with a bigger guy."
> What do you think of Hoyce's refusal to fight in the UFC under time limits, since you do so regularly under EF rules?
HALPH GRACIE: "He is very smart. Why fight with time limits."
Marco Huas interview right before UFC 7 [1995]:
MARCO HUAS: "If we are even in grappling, then we must fight standing. When you are grappling there is a chance to stand up, if you refuse to be caught in a submission or chokehold. The losers to the Gracie's have so far been taken down. They could not stand up again. That is the problem.
The Gracie's adhere to no time limits as they do not want their opponents to stand up again."
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-29-bj-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-european-career-the-magomedov-fight.3968083/
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http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/
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