Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 11] - Fighters´Evolution...

gono btw

gono btw

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Today:[Brazilian Vale Tudo Scene]

When an All-Time Great starts losing, it´s because he didnt evolve,
didnt change his environment [camp/coach] to improve his skill set.


I keep reading this type of argument against fighters like Fedor, Aldo or Barao, mainly...

We could here talk about how:

> A prime is not only about age, physical state, or how many fights u had (all sports combined)..

It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan. Why? Coz u stayed too long in the game.

[shout-out to Tim Sylvia :"Half this game is 90% mental"]

A prime is also not about winning or losing. U can still be winning and no longer be in your prime:
this is called Fight IQ & Experience, mental warfare too (see the B-Hop case).


> This is the reality of having to defend your belt, sometimes...:
you become the main target, and they all study your game, your tendencies....

IIRC, TJ said during the pre-fight talks, that he indeed studied Barao´s game during one year, to the point where he could almost mimick him...
In retrospective, this is a testament of TJ´s hespect for Barao´s game, to those who claim Barao was overrated...


We could indeed discuss all these dimensions, but... I somehow remembered this ol´pic,
and... Nuff´Said.


wallid-e-carlson.jpg



#ShitWasAlwaysRealWithThese2


http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
 
Last edited:
gono btw said:
Today:

When an All-Time Great starts losing, it´s because he didnt evolve,
didnt change his environment [camp/coach] to improve his skillset.


I keep reading this type of argument against fighters like Fedor, Aldo or Barao, mainly...

We could here talk about how:

> A prime is not only about age, physical state, or how many fights u had (all sports combined)..

It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan. Why? Coz u stayed too long in the game.

[shout-out to Tim Sylvia :"Half this game is 90% mental"]

A prime is also not about winning or losing. U can still be winning and no longer be in your prime:
this is called Fight IQ & Experience, mental warfare too (see the B-Hop case).


> This is the reality of having to defend your belt, sometimes...:
you become the main target, and they all study your game, your tendencies....

IIRC, TJ said during the pre-fight talks, that he indeed studied Barao´s game during one year, to the point where he could almost mimick him...
In retrospective, this is a testament of TJ´s hespect for Barao´s game, to those who claim Barao was overrated...


We could indeed discuss all these dimensions, but... I somehow remembered this ol´pic,
and... Nuff´Said.


View attachment 437525



#ShitWasAlwaysRealWithThese2
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you really deconstruct this claim here.
More like, you bring additional depth to it.

And what about this picture? Wallid sleeping on Carlson, rifht?
 
AimedWithV said:
I'm not sure you really deconstruct this claim here.
More like, you bring additional depth to it.

And what about this picture? Wallid sleeping on Carlson, rifht?
Click to expand...
Yeah, Wallid and his mentor...

This pic somehow made my effort futile, says it all imo...

Carlson, jus´like Pederneiras in Nova Uniao, knew very well his pupil, his skillset, what he could do or not, his potential evolution as a fighter, his peak...
 
gono btw said:
Today:

When an All-Time Great starts losing, it´s because he
(1) didnt evolve,
(2) didnt change his environment [camp/coach] to improve his skillset...
(3) It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan.
Click to expand...

I numbered these items, to make it more clear. I'd say they're all similar, and more symptoms than causes.

Not evolving, not changing camps (if necessary) and no longer following gameplans are symptoms of not staying at the top of your game and ahead of your competition.

While he wasn't a GOAT, Randy Couture was an example of a fighter who continually evolved and never deviated from his gameplans. When he fought Mark Coleman in 2010, both were 46 years old, decorated wrestlers, former UFC champs and had fought at both HW and LHW. The similarities ended there. Randy was clearly the better fighter, dominating and submitting Coleman. Couture evolved over the years, improving his striking and submission game and tailoring his wrestling to his age and abilities. Coleman never moved beyond his 1990s Hammer House skillset.
 
mkt said:
I numbered these items, to make it more clear. I'd say they're all similar, and more symptoms than causes.

Not evolving, not changing camps (if necessary) and no longer following gameplans are symptoms of not staying at the top of your game and ahead of your competition.

While he wasn't a GOAT, Randy Couture was an example of a fighter who continually evolved and never deviated from his gameplans. When he fought Mark Coleman in 2010, both were 46 years old, decorated wrestlers, former UFC champs and had fought at both HW and LHW. The similarities ended there. Randy was clearly the better fighter, dominating and submitting Coleman. Couture evolved over the years, improving his striking and submission game and tailoring his wrestling to his age and abilities. Coleman never moved beyond his 1990s Hammer House skillset.
Click to expand...
yeah..might be a lil bit more complex...

A skillset is related to a physical/mental capacity, they were not losing coz they were not evolving...

Coleman was competing in a more 'dangerous environment' imo.... Had Randy fought those killers in Pride (in their prime), would have taken some yrs of his prime too... See when he technically did fight them: vs Ricco & Josh, who would jump from Pride to UFC: he was destroyed.

And remember: the UFC was an environment way less talented grappling-wise, Im pretty sure Randy would have been submitted left & right in Pride...

A matter of perspective...
 
gono btw said:
yeah..might be a lil bit more complex...

A skillset is related to a physical/mental capacity, they were not losing coz they were not evolving...

Coleman was competing in a more 'dangerous environment' imo.... Had Randy fought those killers in Pride (in their prime), would have taken some yrs of his prime too... See when he technically did fight them: vs Ricco & Josh, who would jump from Pride to UFC: he was destroyed.

And remember: the UFC was environment was less talented grappling-wise, Im pretty sure Randy would have been submitted left & right in Pride...

A matter of perspective...
Click to expand...

Randy's submission defense was weak when he started, but he really improved it. Coleman never did...as evidenced in his last fight with Randy. Big Nog didn't submit Randy, though he definitely tried and had Randy in some bad spots. Nog was past his prime, but so was Randy (and a lot older than Nog). I still say Randy and Coleman's careers took very different trajectories based on the way they trained and evolved.
 
mkt said:
Randy's submission defense was weak when he started, but he really improved it. Coleman never did...as evidenced in his last fight with Randy. Big Nog didn't submit Randy, though he definitely tried and had Randy in some bad spots. Nog was past his prime, but so was Randy (and a lot older than Nog). I still say Randy and Coleman's careers took very different trajectories based on the way they trained and evolved.
Click to expand...
Big Nog, grappling-wise, was not the same fighter in the UFC. Was done.

In Rings, would have done a carry-job with Randy, and in Pride, a sparring...

They took headbutts away from Coleman, if you take the fence away from Randy...
 
gono btw said:
Big Nog, grappling-wise, was not the same fighter in the UFC. Was done.

In Rings, would have done a carry-job with Randy, and in Pride, a sparring...

They took headbutts away from Coleman, if you take the fence away from Randy...
Click to expand...

You can keep protesting but the data (and fights) are there. Randy was freakin' 45 years old when he fought Nog...most people here say he had no business fighting Lesnar and this was AFTER that. If anything, he was further from his grappling prime than Nog. If Coleman couldn't adapt from headbutts, that's his fault. The same thing was taken from all other wrestlers.
 
mkt said:
You can keep protesting but the data (and fights) are there. Randy was freakin' 45 years old when he fought Nog...most people here say he had no business fighting Lesnar and this was AFTER that. If anything, he was further from his grappling prime than Nog. If Coleman couldn't adapt from headbutts, that's his fault. The same thing was taken from all other wrestlers.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, not protesting, trying to see other perspectives...

As I always say, a skillset is related to a fight configuration, that´s where you can assess a fighter and his evolution.

Was it Coleman´s fault? The real original Fight Configuration is the NHB/Vale Tudo one, where Coleman was more competitive.

It is what it is.
 
gono btw said:
Today:

When an All-Time Great starts losing, it´s because he didnt evolve,
didnt change his environment [camp/coach] to improve his skillset.


I keep reading this type of argument against fighters like Fedor, Aldo or Barao, mainly...

We could here talk about how:

> A prime is not only about age, physical state, or how many fights u had (all sports combined)..

It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan. Why? Coz u stayed too long in the game.

[shout-out to Tim Sylvia :"Half this game is 90% mental"]

A prime is also not about winning or losing. U can still be winning and no longer be in your prime:
this is called Fight IQ & Experience, mental warfare too (see the B-Hop case).


> This is the reality of having to defend your belt, sometimes...:
you become the main target, and they all study your game, your tendencies....

IIRC, TJ said during the pre-fight talks, that he indeed studied Barao´s game during one year, to the point where he could almost mimick him...
In retrospective, this is a testament of TJ´s hespect for Barao´s game, to those who claim Barao was overrated...


We could indeed discuss all these dimensions, but... I somehow remembered this ol´pic,
and... Nuff´Said.


View attachment 437525



#ShitWasAlwaysRealWithThese2
Click to expand...

Who are those two? Also B Hop?
 
gono btw said:
Today:

When an All-Time Great starts losing, it´s because he didnt evolve,
didnt change his environment [camp/coach] to improve his skillset.


I keep reading this type of argument against fighters like Fedor, Aldo or Barao, mainly...

We could here talk about how:

> A prime is not only about age, physical state, or how many fights u had (all sports combined)..

It can be a mental thing, like Frank said after the Cung Le fight, when he said that he no longer had the mental discipline to follow a gameplan. Why? Coz u stayed too long in the game.

[shout-out to Tim Sylvia :"Half this game is 90% mental"]

A prime is also not about winning or losing. U can still be winning and no longer be in your prime:
this is called Fight IQ & Experience, mental warfare too (see the B-Hop case).


> This is the reality of having to defend your belt, sometimes...:
you become the main target, and they all study your game, your tendencies....

IIRC, TJ said during the pre-fight talks, that he indeed studied Barao´s game during one year, to the point where he could almost mimick him...
In retrospective, this is a testament of TJ´s hespect for Barao´s game, to those who claim Barao was overrated...


We could indeed discuss all these dimensions, but... I somehow remembered this ol´pic,
and... Nuff´Said.


View attachment 437525



#ShitWasAlwaysRealWithThese2
Click to expand...

It is true more so before than now. Fighters are more complete now than before. The old guard generally wasn't as complete.

B-Hop is a terrible example all round. Boxing is a very mature sport and there really isn't any new techniques. B-Hop gets by by fighting younger fighters that aren't as experienced AND don't have the physical endurance to push the pace. Near anyone in the top echelons with endurance can just out work B-Hop. You can't do this type of pussy footing in mma It would be like only attempting one takedown in a round.



mkt said:
I numbered these items, to make it more clear. I'd say they're all similar, and more symptoms than causes.

Not evolving, not changing camps (if necessary) and no longer following gameplans are symptoms of not staying at the top of your game and ahead of your competition.

While he wasn't a GOAT, Randy Couture was an example of a fighter who continually evolved and never deviated from his gameplans. When he fought Mark Coleman in 2010, both were 46 years old, decorated wrestlers, former UFC champs and had fought at both HW and LHW. The similarities ended there. Randy was clearly the better fighter, dominating and submitting Coleman. Couture evolved over the years, improving his striking and submission game and tailoring his wrestling to his age and abilities. Coleman never moved beyond his 1990s Hammer House skillset.
Click to expand...

Randy just dirty boxed at the start and at the end of his career. He was a good wrestler and was on TRT, just like Belfort. He got a ridiculous number of title fights even though he could never hang on to any belt. Couture would lose to Lesnar 10 times if they fought 10 times. Some of the top HW and LHW would perform similarly.


InfinityLens said:
Who are those two? Also B Hop?
Click to expand...

BHOP is a spinoff of IHOP.
 
Prefect said:
It is true more so before than now. Fighters are more complete now than before. The old guard generally wasn't as complete.

B-Hop is a terrible example all round. Boxing is a very mature sport and there really isn't any new techniques. B-Hop gets by by fighting younger fighters that aren't as experienced AND don't have the physical endurance to push the pace. Near anyone in the top echelons with endurance can just out work B-Hop. You can't do this type of pussy footing in mma It would be like only attempting one takedown in a round.





Randy just dirty boxed at the start and at the end of his career. He was a good wrestler and was on TRT, just like Belfort. He got a ridiculous number of title fights even though he could never hang on to any belt.
Click to expand...
B-Hop is retired...

B-Hop had technically a '2nd prime' @ LHW, thanx to what I was talking about.

About the evolution of our sport:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5.3807975/
 
Prefect said:
Hopkins never had a second prime. He had moderate success at LHW against weak competition. Almost all his success and best fights were at MW. He moved up to try to find fewer fighters that could push the pace.
Click to expand...
Not really, he moved up coz he somehow lost 2 dec to Taylor (SD, UD), and Taylor was the unified champ, means no future @ MW.

I suggest you acknowledge who he did fight @ LHW , can hardly call them weak competition...
 
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