Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 1] - Hoyce & His Gi @ UFC 1.

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Today:[Brazilian & USA Vale Tudo Scenes]

MYTH : Hoyce HAD to win @ UFC 1.


Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-34-horion´s-choice-ufc-1.3984975/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/


> Context : An ol´school fight from the Vale Tudo days...

Renan Pitanguy [BJJ] X Eugênio Tadeu [MT/Luta Livre]

The infamous JJ vs. MA - Jiu-Jitsu vs. Martial Arts...[30/11/1984]
(was in reality GJJ vs MT)

vlcsnap-2019-03-12-04h59m14s443.png Vale-Tudo-de-1984-510x402.jpg

4 fights... I chose 1, not the most famous (Ruas vs Pinduka was the real main event), but a symbolic one since
it is useful to understand and deconstruct one of those eternal MMA Myths: that Hoyce HAD to win at UFC 1, no one could really challenge him...

But, Ken was [rightfully] a legit favourite too, and even Art Davie (BJJ student by then) admitted in his book that even though Horion was very self-confident/arrogant about a probable Hoyce victory, Ken could realistically be seen as a legit thread:

[book: Is this legal?:
" As dismissive as the Gracies were of all other fighting styles, I knew that Rorion took Shamrock very seriously, and felt that he could be his brother’s toughest opponent. He didn’t tell me much about Royce’s week of training in their Executive Tower Inn hotel suite, but Rorion did say that Rickson had special drills that he was putting Royce through, so as to be ready for Shamrock"]

They included Ken, but they did so coz they were self-confident/arrogant, not coz they wanted to build the sport.
Ken could/should have won (see Eugenio Tadeu vs Renan Pitanguy, or Hoyce vs Ken @ UFC 5, extra time, b4 goin´ to the...ground).

Ken could have roughed him up, this was a LHW vs a WW, basically, he went to the ground but he could have avoided it (Hoyce was good at draggin´to the ground, tbf)

Well, watch this fight, knowing that:

1- Just like Hoyce, Pitanguy was of the very,very few BJJ dudes who opted to keep his Gi during a Vale Tudo fight (you´ll see the consequences during this fight).

Even Hickson in 1980 & 1984,, even George in the 1930s-50s, even Carlson in the 1950s-60s
[Rolls, during his unique Vale Tudo fight: BJJ vs Karate Challenge, did choose to fight with a gi.]

2- Tadeu was/is a MT practionner who then took on Luta Livre [Luta Livre is somehow similar to catch-wrestling], had a limited ground game at that time.

The MT/Luta Livre team had to hire Brunocilla as a coach to enhance their ground game (they were all very raw, Marco Huas was the best of the 4, Tadeu could only be considered a blue belt)

Finally: the size difference between Hoyce & Ken is similar to the one btw Tadeu & Pitanguy.




http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
 
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Pretty cool. This is the first time I have seen this.

Tadeu was very fast and very athletic here. The fights I am used to seeing with him were over a decade later where he seems to be older, a little slower and carrying more muscle.

He showed a lot of good movement here. Keeping his distance from the grappler and using a lot of feints. Very nice dirty boxing in the first fight using the gi against his opponent.

Even without a gi to grab in the second fight he still shows some nasty dirty boxing. Who is that he is fighting in the second fight? He really fucked him up at the end there. Looks like the towel gets thrown in and is that a young Helio visibly angry in the last shot? "Porra Caralho!" or something like that. Lol
 
Typrune Goatley said:
Pretty cool. This is the first time I have seen this.

Tadeu was very fast and very athletic here. The fights I am used to seeing with him were over a decade later where he seems to be older, a little slower and carrying more muscle.

He showed a lot of good movement here. Keeping his distance from the grappler and using a lot of feints. Very nice dirty boxing in the first fight using the gi against his opponent.

Even without a gi to grab in the second fight he still shows some nasty dirty boxing. Who is that he is fighting in the second fight? He really fucked him up at the end there. Looks like the towel gets thrown in and is that a young Helio visibly angry in the last shot? "Porra Caralho!" or something like that. Lol
Click to expand...
It´s actually the same fight, but Pitanguy finally understood that the use of the GI in a Vale Tudo situation can indeed be a risky choice...

That´s what I wanted to stress here: Royce´s choice to keep it at UFC 1 against someone like KEN (whose skill set is quite similiar to Tadeu´s... and the size difference btw Tadeu and Pitanguy, & btw Royce and Ken... is comparable)
 
Ohhhh okay. I thought the fight got stopped and then they showed a new fight. That's actually hilarious.

"Let me take this damn gi off and then I will whip your ass!"

wandyvnakamura.gif
 
Typrune Goatley said:
Ohhhh okay. I thought the fight got stopped and then they showed a new fight. That's actually hilarious.

"Let me take this damn gi off and then I will whip your ass!"

wandyvnakamura.gif
Click to expand...
Yeah..I actually never saw any Royce interview about the GI.. Even Royler, even in his fight against Tadeu behind closed doors, chose not to use it... None of them Gracies actually, historically...
 
gono btw said:
Yeah..I actually never saw any Royce interview about the GI.. Even Royler, even in his fight against Tadeu behind closed doors, chose not to use it... None of them Gracies actually, historically...
Click to expand...

I believe Royce wore the gi for the friction and so as not to "slide around." Much easier to maintain control of someone on the ground wearing a gi compared to two sweaty bodies rubbing against each other.

But it is interesting that Renzo, Royler and Rickson never wore the Gi. But they all also had much better takedowns than Royce IMO so they usually had no problem securing top position and playing a different game. It was a much bigger deal if somebody escaped or stood back up from Royce on the ground because it was more difficult for him to re-initiate the grappling once again than it was for his slightly more versatile brothers and cousins. Am I making sense there?

Also a lot more submission options with the Gi. I also wonder if the "marketing of BJJ" was another reason to wear the Gi.

It is also interesting how Royce chose not to wear a Gi in the rematches with Yoshida and Sakuraba. I can't remember if he did that to prevent them using it against him or if he wanted to throw them off with the change at the last minute?
 
Typrune Goatley said:
I believe Royce wore the gi for the friction and so as not to "slide around." Much easier to maintain control of someone on the ground wearing a gi compared to two sweaty bodies rubbing against each other.

But it is interesting that Renzo, Royler and Rickson never wore the Gi. But they all also had much better takedowns than Royce IMO so they usually had no problem securing top position and playing a different game. It was a much bigger deal if somebody escaped or stood back up from Royce on the ground because it was more difficult for him to re-initiate the grappling once again than it was for his slightly more versatile brothers and cousins. Am I making sense there?

Also a lot more submission options with the Gi. I also wonder if the "marketing of BJJ" was another reason to wear the Gi.

It is also interesting how Royce chose not to wear a Gi in the rematches with Yoshida and Sakuraba. I can't remember if he did that to prevent them using it against him or if he wanted to throw them off with the change at the last minute?
Click to expand...
He actually started to officially change his mind in the Akebono fight, just after Yoshida 1...But he still kept the pants...

Obviously it must have started in the 1st SAKU GOAT fight, where it showed its limits, that you could envision in the Tadeu vs Pitanguy fight...A double-edged sword...

Ken could/should have taken advantage of it, because of his size and strength, obviously he entered the fight with a "Pancrase mentality", I believe, like a more technical approach...

About the Marketing thing,then the other Gracies would have done it too.. Obviously, Rorion was more in controle of Royce´s career...

Royce´s grappling was heavily based on his agility and his scrambles... Transitionnal moves where he often sensed he could threaten with a sub or put himself into a more dominant position...
For sure he believed the GI was a thing that could help him in those scrambles...
 
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There's nothing quite like seeing the Gracie crew get big brothered.
 
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Typrune Goatley said:
Ohhhh okay. I thought the fight got stopped and then they showed a new fight. That's actually hilarious.

"Let me take this damn gi off and then I will whip your ass!"

wandyvnakamura.gif
Click to expand...
I remember this Nakamura sequence... Was fun.
 
gono btw said:
Today, an ol´school fight from the Vale Tudo days...

Renan Pitanguy [BJJ] X Eugênio Tadeu [Luta Livre]

The infamous BJJ vs Luta Livre 1984 Challenge.

4 fights... I chose 1, not the most famous (Ruas Pinduka was the real main event), but a symbolic one since
it is useful to understand and deconstruct one of those eternal MMA Myths: that Royce HAD to win at UFC 1, no one could really challenge him...

Well, watch this fight, knowing that:

1- Just like Royce, Pitanguy was of the very,very few BJJ dudes who opted to keep his gi during a Vale Tudo fight (you´ll see the consequences during this fight).

Even Rickson in 1980 & 1984,, even George in the 1930s-50s, even Carlson in the 1950s-60s
[Rolls, during the BJJ vs Karate Challenge: can´t confirm] chose to fight without gi.

2- Tadeu was/is a Luta Livre practionner [Luta Livre is somehow similar to catch-wrestling], had a limited ground game at that time.

The Luta Livre team had to hire Brunocilla as a coach to enhance their ground game (they were all very raw, Ruas was the best of the 4, Tadeu could only be considered a blue belt)


Click to expand...


Nice video
 
Somebody needs to make a master list of all these fight pre-UFC 1. Not me though, I'm lazy.
 
InfinityLens said:
Somebody needs to make a master list of all these fight pre-UFC 1. Not me though, I'm lazy.
Click to expand...
Some people are doin´it, for instance some researchers listed George Gracie´s fights [Vale Tudo & Mixed Rules] in the 1930s-40s...
 
InfinityLens said:
No way! Is there anywhere they publish their work?
Click to expand...
Books about the Vale Tudo era, them Gracies released a book a few years ago for instance
+ some researchers drop some info around here, about ol´school records...
 
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