Dangers of shooting a high crotch

[brollikk]

So, I was watching the Palhares fight

Rousimar Palhares vs. Alan Belcher HD - FREE FIGHT VIDEO ONLINE

and noticed that belcher was able to get a crotch lock and pull palhares easily into the spread eagle/twister position. This in addition to the "WEC" choke seems like the 2 most easily executed counters to this takedown.

For those of you guys who have high level wrestling AND high level BJJ, what is your go-to movement right after shooting a high crotch?

Particularly, how do you deal with stopping the WEC choke (arm in guillotine with their legs not completely in full guard, shin across stomach)

 

[kietzmanc]

Not shoot a single or high crotch with my head to the outside...

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Passing right away, and not leaving my head on the outside usually helps.

 

[Mad Sweeps]

Not shoot a single or high crotch with my head to the outside...

this

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Jake Shields uses it all the time.

 

[woooo]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/nice-high-c-finish-wrestling-jiu-jitsu-1489171/index2.html

 

[Gabicho]

If your head is on the outside, it helps to throw them face-first into the mat instead of having them land on their back. I used to get into guillotines with the high crotch until i was told to do this. If they post or land turtling, go for their back.

 

[Einarr]

I'm so bad at the leg takedowns with my head on the outside, to the point where I finish every high crotch or single leg with a trip or footsweep and keep my head on the inside. It stops me getting choked though.

 

[Shemhazai]

If you turn the corner for an actual high crotch (te guruma in judo) or finish with a double, it's probably safer. I never liked the head outside single leg dump, as it just seems to invite too many dangerous counters.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Switch to double, or pop the head back inside.

 

[brollikk]

If you turn the corner for an actual high crotch (te guruma in judo) or finish with a double, it's probably safer. I never liked the head outside single leg dump, as it just seems to invite too many dangerous counters.

exactly what I am thinking more and more these days.

If the guy actually sprawls or tries to, then turning the corner and getting a double seems to be no problem.

But if they go for a crotch lock or the WEC choke as soon as I shoot, life gets much more difficult.

Hm... I wonder if at higher and higher levels of bjj - leaving the head on the outside is just generally a bad idea.

 

[brollikk]

Jake Shields uses it all the time.

Can you point me to any of his matches in bjj or sub grappling where he does it? Sorry for being lazy.

 

[CelibateTranny]

using your wrestling correctly when executing takedowns will protect you from td defense and submission depending on the skill level of your other partner


if you cut the corner and change your angle immediately he will be ineffective at applying submissions or sprawling. Granted this is dependent on the level of your opponent.

now is you linger in front he can change his angle and latch around the crotch and try to take the back, where you can counter by diving your head under his ankle and try to go out the backdoor or try to cut your hips back in front of him

generally if a guy goes for a guillotine i try to transition my head inside and work from an outside single, trying to dump and if he stays standing cut my head back outside once his weight comes back into me and try to finish with a double again.

 

[woooo]

Can you point me to any of his matches in bjj or sub grappling where he does it? Sorry for being lazy.

In the both the Kampann and Henderson fights.

Nothing wrong with a good outside single / high c. Jake dumps his opponents on the far hip, and so even against somebody with a good guillotine like Kampann he's not in danger.

Nobody shoots an outside single the way Roussimar does, because the crotch lift is the obvious go to counter... and to get to the crotch lift position you have to "beat the shoulder", basically once Belcher got his hips to the side of Roussimar's shoulder instead of underneath it, he won that position.

To avoid this, when a good wrestler shoots an outside single, he will either switch to a double or otherwise (see above) make sure to dump an opponent on the far hip. If you dump someone on the near hip like Roussimar did, you want to dump them and remain standing... and then jump on them once they hit the mat like when you run the pipe, not just follow them to the mat and risk getting countered with a crotch lift.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

Not shoot a single or high crotch with my head to the outside...

A high crotch is a head outside single. If you stuck your head inside on a high crotch it would no longer be a high crotch but a single (or head inside single).

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Can you point me to any of his matches in bjj or sub grappling where he does it? Sorry for being lazy.

I can only think of examples in MMA. But if you look on Youtube for some videos of him rolling, I'm sure you'll find it. It's one of his favorite takedowns. I know he used it against Hendo in MMA.

 

[Shemhazai]

A high crotch is a head outside single. If you stuck your head inside on a high crotch it would no longer be a high crotch but a single (or head inside single).

I thought a high crotch involved turning the corner and lifting? A head outside single to me is a dump finish (aka. running the pipe) with the head on the outside.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

I thought a high crotch involved turning the corner and lifting? A head outside single to me is a dump finish (aka. running the pipe) with the head on the outside.

Nope. Turning the corner and lifting is one of the finishes to the high crotch (head outside single). But you don't have to turn the corner. For example Jake Shields high crotch he usually uses a finish that doesn't involve turning the corner and lifting. And running the pipe from a high crotch/head outside single would just be another finish to the High Crotch.

High Crotch and head outside single are used interchangeably by different people which leads to confusion. The key though is that the head is on the outside. As soon as the head gets on the inside it's a single leg (or head inside single).

It's easier to make sense of things if you just use the head inside single and head outside single terminology.

On a side note, Billly Robinson says that for submission wrestling and MMA you should always use a head outside single. He says the head inside single is flawed because your head can get sprawled on. And the natural way to get out of that is to get your head to the outside to take the weight off the back of the head. (which is also a peek out or duck under movement. Any peek out or duck out your head is going on the outside.). I'm not sure I agree with his philosophy on only using head outside singles because there is still the danger of the guillotine but Robinson has like 60 years more grappling experience than me and I suppose if you do it fast enough and more importantly with the right posture (head up, spine straight) then the guillotine isn't a problem.

If you watch Jake Sheilds enteries into the head outside single, I noticed that he puts his head low near the guys thigh glued to it (instead of up on the hip) so that it's harder to guillotine him.

 

[Shemhazai]

I see. I guess I just learned the high crotch as the lifting finish (te guruma), and assumed the name referred to the finish. Thanks for clearing it up!

As for getting sprawled on with the head on the inside, I much prefer that to getting cross-faced, switched, guillotined or caught in a crucifix with the head on the outside. At least with the head inside you still have the Iranian lift when sprawled upon, or even deep half guard.

 

[Einarr]

I see. I guess I just learned the high crotch as the lifting finish (te guruma), and assumed the name referred to the finish. Thanks for clearing it up!

I think that just refers to the grip, being high on the thigh.