Controversial opinion: 70s Ali was better than 60s?

[Intermission]

While 60s ALi had youth and atleticism, 70s sat down on his punches a little bit more and was more universal. Not even sat down, he just hit harder. Weighed a little bit more, had more strength.

70s Ali wasn't running away as much, he could win fights from both ranges. His performances could be a bit flat at times, but when he was ON he was awesome.

While he may have lost a step in footwork (certainly endurance) he made up for it with added strength and smarts.

To me he was in his prime when he beat Foreman. and when a puncher took a step back, he still beat the breaks off them,

 

[Intermission]

Now you could argue that Ron Lyle didnt have foremans jab.

But the Lyle fight shows Foreman would probably suffer no matter what strategy he employed.

Maybe Im missing some variable... feel free to point it out.

 

[mozfonky]

He wasn't "better" but he did rely on new/different strengths. His will, his chin, his intelligence, resilience, he didn't need those things for most of his 60's fights. The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams is considered the best version of the Ali we got but we likely never saw the best of Ali as he was out of commission for his prime years.

His kayo percentage was higher in the 60's than the 70's, it's true he could kayo guys a bit more in the first half of the 70's but he never scored another knockdown after the Richard Dunn fight, never scored another kayo. He admitted himself that although he was more confident when he was older, he was better when he was younger. He had all his faculties, great defense, great speed, great endurance and he trained his ass off. All those things were greatly diminished when he came back. His legs were the biggest difference, Wilfred Sheen wrote that he came back on rubber legs to win the championship, a lot of truth to that.

 

[Deaths Head]

It’s subjective but 70”s Ali fought much better and tougher opponent after the 60”s and Ali needed more durability to last , I don’t believe 60”s Ali would beat Foreman ,the reset of his career gave him an opportunity to really see what was ahead like Frazier and Foreman though he lost to Frazier the first time he was able to take more punches and outlast most guys that was his prime strategy and it worked for the most part .

Ali was just one of those guys that you saw maybe the best in the Frazier fights it was just atough style match with a guy with also great stamina and threw a high volume of punches but he was more prepared for Foreman bc he had to be and knew he only had one option to make Foreman waste punches and he got advice from Cus Damato doing film study with him bc Cus had access to films few had .

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Fascinating topic, loving the discussion so far. I have no real opinion on this per se. But I'll listen and learn. Although I do believe Ali never reached his prime. We never got to see it. Saying that, without his exile we probably wouldn't have got the legend he became outside the ring. He became bigger than boxing even imo. He was one of a kind and never will be duplicated.

 

[mozfonky]

Ali definitely proved his greatness in the70's. Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shaver's, Lyle, the final gasp of excellence with the Spinks rematch. No, the 60's fighters weren't like the guys he fought in the 70's. Liston was said to be old, Cleveland Williams was known to be shot (literally and physically) and the rest were just good fighters not great.

 

[mozfonky]

It’s subjective but 70”s Ali fought much better and tougher opponent after the 60”s and Ali needed more durability to last , I don’t believe 60”s Ali would beat Foreman ,the reset of his career gave him an opportunity to really see what was ahead like Frazier and Foreman though he lost to Frazier the first time he was able to take more punches and outlast most guys that was his prime strategy and it worked for the most part .

Ali was just one of those guys that you saw maybe the best in the Frazier fights it was just atough style match with a guy with also great stamina and threw a high volume of punches but he was more prepared for Foreman bc he had to be and knew he only had one option to make Foreman waste punches and he got advice from Cus Damato doing film study with him bc Cus had access to films few had .

that was great advice from Cus, you see it all the time in boxing, once a guy gets hit really hard and gains instant respect, he isn't as brave or aggressive. Foreman still threw punches but he gradually lost faith, stamina, confidence, he was beat mentally in the end. I think a former pro told me he counted 103 right hands ali hit foreman with, Ali's only real power punch was his right cross and he made the most of it in that fight. He did not treat Foreman with an ounce of respect.

 

[mozfonky]

Ali also once claimed in an old boxing mag that Liston was the best fighter of the last 25 years besides him. Winked and said, "I was the only guy to beat him when he was good". Ali never lowered his true respect of Liston after he beat him and all the sportswriters piled it on about Liston just being a bully and quitter. Ali never ever lost his respect and even fear post-win. He never spoke about anyone else like he did Liston.

 

[defjaam]

I'd pick 1966-1967 Ali to beat 1971-1974 Ali.
I also believe he'd have less trouble with Norton, could defeat Frazier without any neck grabbing, and him vs. Foreman would resemble his fights vs. Sonny Liston.

The game of inches that is about hitting and not getting hit, Ali in the 60s was just considerably better at that. Yes, he had to stand and fight in the 1970s a lot more, got touched a lot more. But I don't see how that makes him better. It maybe makes for better entertainment.

I agree though that the years where he was banned would've been his best. The Frazier fight would've happened earlier and it would've been better than their meeting from 1971.

 

[Intermission]

He wasn't "better" but he did rely on new/different strengths. His will, his chin, his intelligence, resilience, he didn't need those things for most of his 60's fights. The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams is considered the best version of the Ali we got but we likely never saw the best of Ali as he was out of commission for his prime years.

His kayo percentage was higher in the 60's than the 70's, it's true he could kayo guys a bit more in the first half of the 70's but he never scored another knockdown after the Richard Dunn fight, never scored another kayo. He admitted himself that although he was more confident when he was older, he was better when he was younger. He had all his faculties, great defense, great speed, great endurance and he trained his ass off. All those things were greatly diminished when he came back. His legs were the biggest difference, Wilfred Sheen wrote that he came back on rubber legs to win the championship, a lot of truth to that.

His reflexes were still sharp, his reactions and counters to bob fosters strikes were 10/10

 

[Intermission]

I'd pick 1966-1967 Ali to beat 1971-1974 Ali.

No.. he doesn't have maturity.

 

[mozfonky]

His reflexes were still sharp, his reactions and counters to bob fosters strikes were 10/10

he was still amazing, just not the same. A huge part of that had to be his training, he didn't train diligently for too many of the post exile fights, unbelievably, he was said not to be in top condition for the first and third frazier fights

Funny you should mention the foster fight, that was a very bizarre fight where the smaller man complained about not being able to see ali's hands at all, you'd think a guy who fought middleweights and lightheavyweights wouldn't have a problem with Ali's speed but he did. He also staggered Ali and cut Ali. Strange fight, Foster outjabbed Ali and like most of the heavyweights he fought, just couldn't handle the weight differential. I think he was 178 and Ali was somewhere in the neighborhood of 220. Fights like that had the fight press ready to write Ali off, and especially after the first Norton fight, that could have concievably radically altered his career had he lost the rematch. He came in at 211, indicating he was in the best condition since the 60's.

 

[Intermission]

he was still amazing, just not the same. A huge part of that had to be his training, he didn't train diligently for too many of the post exile fights, unbelievably, he was said not to be in top condition for the first and third frazier fights

Funny you should mention the foster fight, that was a very bizarre fight where the smaller man complained about not being able to see ali's hands at all, you'd think a guy who fought middleweights and lightheavyweights wouldn't have a problem with Ali's speed but he did. He also staggered Ali and cut Ali. Strange fight, Foster outjabbed Ali and like most of the heavyweights he fought, just couldn't handle the weight differential. I think he was 178 and Ali was somewhere in the neighborhood of 220. Fights like that had the fight press ready to write Ali off, and especially after the first Norton fight, that could have concievably radically altered his career had he lost the rematch. He came in at 211, indicating he was in the best condition since the 60's.

He said he had Ali dazed but thought he was playing possum. Maybe he could have won

 

[mozfonky]

He said he had Ali dazed but thought he was playing possum. Maybe he could have won

ya, crazy because of how little Foster was. Ali did the fake hurt thing against several fighters, he did it with frazier in the first fight and Quarry and certainly shavers. he was badly hurt in a few of those situations.

 

[Intermission]

ya, crazy because of how little Foster was. Ali did the fake hurt thing against several fighters, he did it with frazier in the first fight and Quarry and certainly shavers. he was badly hurt in a few of those situations.

Well seeing at the fight Now it does look like he was faking being dazed. He did it too many Times and he got right back into stance.

 

[mozfonky]

N

Well seeing at the fight Now it does look like he was faking being dazed. He did it too many Times and he got right back into stance.

He was staggered.

 

[Intermission]

N

He was staggered.

how can you tell?

 

[defjaam]

No.. he doesn't have maturity.

Some people also say that 1990 Foreman beats 1974 Foreman or 1974 Ali.
It's nonsense. That much time off doesn't improve any athlete.

Of course they become smarter in certain ways. But just recently I watched him vs. Holyfield again, and during the last minute of round 2 I was thinking that young Foreman would've finished Holyfield right there.

 

[Intermission]

Some people also say that 1990 Foreman beats 1974 Foreman or 1974 Ali.
It's nonsense. That much time off doesn't improve any athlete.

Of course they become smarter in certain ways. But just recently I watched him vs. Holyfield again, and during the last minute of round 2 I was thinking that young Foreman would've finished Holyfield right there.

No comparison .Ali was still young. Comeback Foreman was old, and stiff like refrigerator.