Coming Full Circle on the Collar Tie

[updowniri]

When I first started wrestling I would just stand ear to ear for basically the entire match. I would just automatically decide to collar tie without thinking why I was doing it. Later on I decided that collar ties were just a waste of time, I would only grab them reactively to hold myself up, when someone was snapping me down. Snap downs to go behinds on the feet were very rare to hit and I felt that the collar tie would just restrict my other attacks, would have to untie my hand first which can be difficult to shoot. I ended up rarely collar tying and just going directly to the setups.

Lately I have been training at an MMA gym. During wrestling day we have a wrestling practice where we just wrestle. Its take downs only so no wrestling mat work, but also the setups we learn are all pure wrestling related, so no punches to set ups. So when I wrestle most people there I am wrestling MMA guys in pure wrestling. Most of them would just move around and disengage as I tried to get a grip. Also when I did bum rush them to clinch up they would keep their feet very far back which would shut down my shots as well as most of my upper body stuff. Basically even though I was better than them at wrestling I still could not get take downs easily because of them disengaging.

So what was the answer? Collar ties and snap downs. Instead of trying to grab my set up straight off the bat I always enter with a collar tie when my opponent is backing off. And if they put their feet back I snap them down. So basically the collar tie is to wrestling what the jab is to boxing. Its what you just do all the time and use to enter into your other attacks. The collar tie is an initiator that forces your opponent to engage, other moves don't close the distance as well or punish disengagement like the collar tie does.

Maybe in MMA there are punch to grapple combos that do the same thing, but in pure grappling the collar tie is really all there is.

When you watch high level wrestling you notice how they are always working the head. I think it is to wear them down but also the top guys are very good at knowing when to disengage, where as at my level in high school people would just wrestle. They have to collar tie and work the head so much because they need to make sure if they decide to attack their opponent will be there. Now top level collar ties look different than rocking back and forth ear to ear. But the general idea is the same, you have to have that go to move that you can just throw out there to start your sequence of other moves.

So I have come full circle on collar tying.

 

[EndlessCritic]

As someone who knows absolutely jack shit about wrestling, I agree completely.

 

[Smato_rules]

This is a cool insight and makes sense. It can be very frustrating how unengaging people can be in grappling and with their feet so far back.

 

[shunyata]

Not a wrestler, but as a tall guy with judo in my childhood (short heavy dudes in your division always get underneath, so might as well fight tall), my nogi standup game starts with a collar tie / wrist or tricep control and focuses on staying on top in the clinch. Easy to transition to my bastard no gi Georgian grip off the armpit for throwing, or a variety of head and arm choke / headlock situations. You can also hit uppercuts and knees from the top of the clinch much more easily if you're going for mma.


For me the collar tie is to nogi / mma standup grappling what the label grip is to gi grappling.


Also if your opponent death grips their collar tie on you, lock it on your chest and shoulder throw that arm.

 

[rmongler]

A lot of my favorite moves specifically key off of someone going for a collar tie; eg, slicing an underhook in for a throwby or knee tap, or elbow tie into a duckunder, or over-arm tie into a slideby.

A large part of the reason of course being because collar ties are so ubiquitously convenient in the first place.

 

[ChickenBrother]

When I first started wrestling I would just stand ear to ear for basically the entire match. I would just automatically decide to collar tie without thinking why I was doing it. Later on I decided that collar ties were just a waste of time, I would only grab them reactively to hold myself up, when someone was snapping me down. Snap downs to go behinds on the feet were very rare to hit and I felt that the collar tie would just restrict my other attacks, would have to untie my hand first which can be difficult to shoot. I ended up rarely collar tying and just going directly to the setups.

Lately I have been training at an MMA gym. During wrestling day we have a wrestling practice where we just wrestle. Its take downs only so no wrestling mat work, but also the setups we learn are all pure wrestling related, so no punches to set ups. So when I wrestle most people there I am wrestling MMA guys in pure wrestling. Most of them would just move around and disengage as I tried to get a grip. Also when I did bum rush them to clinch up they would keep their feet very far back which would shut down my shots as well as most of my upper body stuff. Basically even though I was better than them at wrestling I still could not get take downs easily because of them disengaging.

So what was the answer? Collar ties and snap downs. Instead of trying to grab my set up straight off the bat I always enter with a collar tie when my opponent is backing off. And if they put their feet back I snap them down. So basically the collar tie is to wrestling what the jab is to boxing. Its what you just do all the time and use to enter into your other attacks. The collar tie is an initiator that forces your opponent to engage, other moves don't close the distance as well or punish disengagement like the collar tie does.

Maybe in MMA there are punch to grapple combos that do the same thing, but in pure grappling the collar tie is really all there is.

When you watch high level wrestling you notice how they are always working the head. I think it is to wear them down but also the top guys are very good at knowing when to disengage, where as at my level in high school people would just wrestle. They have to collar tie and work the head so much because they need to make sure if they decide to attack their opponent will be there. Now top level collar ties look different than rocking back and forth ear to ear. But the general idea is the same, you have to have that go to move that you can just throw out there to start your sequence of other moves.

So I have come full circle on collar tying.

Like you I also learned and got comfortable with collar ties in HS wrestling and have kept up the habit. Agree with @shunyata it's the equivalent of sleeve and lapel grip in Judo/gi grappling - i.e. the default neutral tie up.

I can relate to the experience you had, and it's important to consider the "levels to this shit" factor. I was a mediocre HS varsity wrestler and got used to muscling or otherwise forcing front headlock, duck under or head and arm throw from collar tie and could get away with this vs. similar or lower level competition. As an adult I once trained with a former D1 guy and he said I was committing way too long to the collar tie. All better wrestlers chain wrestle and that means actively transitioning. The D1 guy would accept collar tie with me for maybe a few seconds and if he couldn't improve position, he'd head snap me down and shoot in when I came up, shuck me off and circle or otherwise disengage and reset.

I also now train BJJ at an MMA gym and we go TDs maybe once/week usually on no gi day. I like going with the MMA guys or other guys with wrestling backgrounds because they try to engage and make it a TD battle. But working anything from a tie up requires other guy to engage. Most frustrating thing for me is going TDs with hobbyist BJJ guys who don't know how or want to wrestle. Even when coach says no guard pulling, a lot of guys refuse to tie up with me (I have a dogshit wrestling + Judo background) and they just play defensive and refuse to engage. Often I end up chasing them around the mat trying to tie up without success.

 

[DatCutman]

I learned that the unwashed masses can barely deal with a simple tie up. It's a waste to even bother with more advanced set ups.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Most frustrating thing for me is going TDs with hobbyist BJJ guys who don't know how or want to wrestle. Even when coach says no guard pulling, a lot of guys refuse to tie up with me (I have a dogshit wrestling + Judo background) and they just play defensive and refuse to engage. .

 

[ChickenBrother]

 

[rmongler]

Advancing foot sweeps are the trick against guys who are stuck on playing keep away; you don't even need them to come to grips with you, you just need to put hands on them, push them moving, and introduce your boot to the party.

Stallers like this are kinda like cagey chicks, in that they'll let you get within spitting distance, but then always try to maintain that exact same distance no matter what - which is to say, if you're in range to put hands on them, they'll likely already be wanting to move away - which is to say, they are moving, so they just play themselves into the game.

 

[Daz2300]

For gi BJJ competitions there's a lot to be said for just hauling guys hunched over with their arse stuck miles away to the ground through double-handed snap downs using the collar. It's embarrassing how negative and scared to get thrown most people are when they're on their feet.

The amount of guys who'll grab a Collar Tie in Nogi with no clue what they want it for is funny too, it's almost always a complete stalemate and amazing how reluctant people are to collar tie with their non-dominant arm or doing things like duck-unders off the other guy's collar tie. It's one of those situations where being taught a couple of basic techniques to deal with that stalemate at white belt puts people way ahead of many coloured belts.