Closing the distance

[Bret Griffin]

Need help with getting into the clinch from striking range, anyone have some advice/links? More specifically how to effectively cover up while coming in.

 

[Auspex]

MMA or BJJ?

Is your striking decent? How Fast are you? What's your wrestling background? What do you hope to accomplish in the clinch?

Give us an idea to work with...

 

[lechien]

What is the context? Mma or just self defense?

 

[Steve08]

As you say "from striking range", I'm going to presume that you're saying this as an MMA striker because getting into the clinch in grappling competition really isn't much harder than just stepping close to them while grip-fighting since since there's no threat of strikes; if I'm not totally off-base with that assumption, then this thread may actually be better suited for the striking forum.

Anyway, just taking your post at face value (though as stated by previous posters, additional context would prove helpful), I'm going to say I personally believe that covering up is a pretty shitty and limited form of defense that leaves you open to body shots, low kicks, and leg takedowns, and should only be used as a last resort. I think merely stepping away in response to any attack an opponent makes is far safer, and also allows you to protect your ribs (to defend body shots) with a low elbow guard, but I'm kind of rambling now. As far as getting into clinch range goes, you basically just want to be able to place your hands on his shoulders and biceps. If you can do that then you're pretty much golden because from there it's easy to look for either collar ties or under/overhooks, AND if you can cover his shoulders and/or biceps then there's basically no way he can punch you effectively so it's a win/win situation.

As far as the matter of getting to the point where you can attempt to muffle his punches by stiff-arming his upper body, or even skipping that by simply swimming your arms underneath his to get underhooks, I'd say you're probably going to want to literally just jump into range behind a right straight or left hook. Make sure to weave your head to the outside of the opponent (to his right works best because doing so brings your head away from the two most likely counter punches-- the left hook and right straight) while you do that to avoid getting clipped on the way in. That all might sound kind of whacko or crazy, but Jack Slack calls it "punch and clutch" and Floyd Mayweather does it in his fights literally all the time, and so did Fedor Emelianenko at his best (which makes sense because he had decent boxing, devastating KO power and world-class judo). It works because you can usually land a free power shot, and even if you miss, you still wind up in the clinch which is ideal if you enjoy looking for slide bys/knee taps/lateral drops/inside and outside trips/hip tosses/basically any clinch takedown. Or just knees, like shit, man, whatever; the clinch is a pretty cool place to be.

I've also seen Alistair Overeem use some nifty-neato switch-hitting to get into clinch range like against Badr Hari the first time, Peter Aerts, and Remy Bonjasky, but I don't know if you (TS) are as fond of switching stances as I am so I won't talk about that (unless you would prefer I do so, eh?).

Oh, and to really JUMP in behind power shots, you want to basically drive off your back foot while throwing your front hip forward behind your left hand to lead with a hook Roy Jones-style; or to alternatively attempt a powerful "lunging" cross, just drop your weight onto your front foot while stepping it forward (though I believe you could also simply drive off the back foot while merely throwing a right cross instead of a left hook, but I have never attempted this in my own sparring or experimentation). Those attacks are pretty cool because they place you in range quickly, and most opponents simply do not expect a jolting cross or left hook without a jab preceding it because it technically is "wrong" to lead with hooks or right hands, but hey Roy Jones knocked down a prime James Toney by jumping right out of his stance with the very same leaping left hook that I just described so it's definitely okay to break the rules too so long as you do it for a productive reason!

 

[Pro Killer]

I like the option steve gave of switching stances, Throw a left Jab and step forward on your right foot when doing it, You've literally closed the distance by a couple of foot. From there you can either follow up with a right hook, A lead right and step on the left (This works best if they are back pedalling) or engage in a clinch/takedown!

 

[Gavster]

Its a weak area of BJJ. It comes to timing their striking, which isn't really trained well in grappling only arts. You can spring off your back foot to get in quicker but only if they are off balanced/not ready. You can throw a couple of punches, combos are best if the person starts to cover up.
Probably the best is to bait them in by standing just outside their punching range and playing timid. They step in and you change levels to avoid punches and come up into clinch.
Lots of scenarios.

 

[SummerStriker]

Steve is right on. As a striker who usually avoids the clinch, the best way in is to throw your own strike and shuffle in.

The most important aspect of closing the distance is not backing up when you defend a strike.

You can prepare for that by clearly having in mind what you will do for each basic pot shot. Get a striker to teach you the best stable block or parry for the 1,2,3 push kick and the Thai an TKD round kicks.

A harder problem is keeping the clinch. Me personally, I'm really good at making sure whatever clinch I end up in is neutral. Then, I calmly protect my self, not looking for an attack, only defense. When my opponent goes for a level change or hard strike, or even pummel, I throw him off and break ground with a hop and short strikes.

Once you get the clinch with someone who only wants to escape it, you can dominate if you stay calm and go slow. Make the neutral grips dominant with your head and body positioning before trying to improve the kind of clinch you have.

 

[Bret Griffin]

Sorry, that was right before bed. To clarify I meant more for self defense but I would like to be able to practice it in an mma context as that is what really showed me this glaring hole in my fighting ability

 

[lechien]

Sorry, that was right before bed. To clarify I meant more for self defense but I would like to be able to practice it in an mma context as that is what really showed me this glaring hole in my fighting ability

ok, we do this drill once in a while.

One person put some boxing gloves on and punch you in the face, you can only use your JJ skills (not allowed to hit him back).

I ussually end up blocking the punches and clinching for a takedown, once on a ground it is a piece of cake.

Now the problem was that the person was not longer punching me, he would just do the good old "sprawl and brawl" because he was expecting the clinch attempt.

Then you need to start striking to set up your clinch attempt (mayb a stiff jab to force him to block and force him to put his hands up instead of sprawling).

Needless to say, it started to ressemble MMA training instead of JJ training.

Good luck.

 

[Bret Griffin]

As you say "from striking range", I'm going to presume that you're saying this as an MMA striker because getting into the clinch in grappling competition really isn't much harder than just stepping close to them while grip-fighting since since there's no threat of strikes; if I'm not totally off-base with that assumption, then this thread may actually be better suited for the striking forum.

Anyway, just taking your post at face value (though as stated by previous posters, additional context would prove helpful), I'm going to say I personally believe that covering up is a pretty shitty and limited form of defense that leaves you open to body shots, low kicks, and leg takedowns, and should only be used as a last resort. I think merely stepping away in response to any attack an opponent makes is far safer, and also allows you to protect your ribs (to defend body shots) with a low elbow guard, but I'm kind of rambling now. As far as getting into clinch range goes, you basically just want to be able to place your hands on his shoulders and biceps. If you can do that then you're pretty much golden because from there it's easy to look for either collar ties or under/overhooks, AND if you can cover his shoulders and/or biceps then there's basically no way he can punch you effectively so it's a win/win situation.

As far as the matter of getting to the point where you can attempt to muffle his punches by stiff-arming his upper body, or even skipping that by simply swimming your arms underneath his to get underhooks, I'd say you're probably going to want to literally just jump into range behind a right straight or left hook. Make sure to weave your head to the outside of the opponent (to his right works best because doing so brings your head away from the two most likely counter punches-- the left hook and right straight) while you do that to avoid getting clipped on the way in. That all might sound kind of whacko or crazy, but Jack Slack calls it "punch and clutch" and Floyd Mayweather does it in his fights literally all the time, and so did Fedor Emelianenko at his best (which makes sense because he had decent boxing, devastating KO power and world-class judo). It works because you can usually land a free power shot, and even if you miss, you still wind up in the clinch which is ideal if you enjoy looking for slide bys/knee taps/lateral drops/inside and outside trips/hip tosses/basically any clinch takedown. Or just knees, like shit, man, whatever; the clinch is a pretty cool place to be.

I've also seen Alistair Overeem use some nifty-neato switch-hitting to get into clinch range like against Badr Hari the first time, Peter Aerts, and Remy Bonjasky, but I don't know if you (TS) are as fond of switching stances as I am so I won't talk about that (unless you would prefer I do so, eh?).

Oh, and to really JUMP in behind power shots, you want to basically drive off your back foot while throwing your front hip forward behind your left hand to lead with a hook Roy Jones-style; or to alternatively attempt a powerful "lunging" cross, just drop your weight onto your front foot while stepping it forward (though I believe you could also simply drive off the back foot while merely throwing a right cross instead of a left hook, but I have never attempted this in my own sparring or experimentation). Those attacks are pretty cool because they place you in range quickly, and most opponents simply do not expect a jolting cross or left hook without a jab preceding it because it technically is "wrong" to lead with hooks or right hands, but hey Roy Jones knocked down a prime James Toney by jumping right out of his stance with the very same leaping left hook that I just described so it's definitely okay to break the rules too so long as you do it for a productive reason!

Thanks man that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Balto]

Throw your own strikes. Then the guy will come to you for the clinch.

I do not understand the weird BJJ drills where one guy can only strike and one guy can only grapple. It does not seem realistic to me. Both guys will do both in a real fight.

As someone who came to BJJ from a striking background, clinches happen all the time naturally when both guys are throwing strikes.

 

[deadlizard]

As someone who came to BJJ from a striking background, clinches happen all the time naturally when both guys are throwing strikes.

I agree. Just take a look at your typical TKD matches. It quickly becomes a chest rubbing match.

 

[Balto]

I agree. Just take a look at your typical TKD matches. It quickly becomes a chest rubbing match.

Yes. It is because closing the distance is a natural part of striking and is taught quite well.

Some guys fight very rangy and try to run from you. One solution to that is to corner them and get inside. That is closing the distance. It is an essential skill for any striker.

Really this is just one of those topics that is better covered in a striking class. If you want to learn how to get inside on a boxer, just go to boxing class for a little while. They will teach that to you guaranteed.

It is going to be difficult to do on a very well trained guy, but that is the main reason people put in the work to become a very well trained guy. Against a random dude, it is really not that hard to learn basic footwork and how to close the distance. You use your footwork to create angles, slip punches, set up some of your own, and pretty soon you are in the clinch no problem if that's what you wanted.

 

[aries]

I do not understand the weird BJJ drills where one guy can only strike and one guy can only grapple. It does not seem realistic to me. Both guys will do both in a real fight.

Maybe it's to prepare the BJJ'er if they aren't a good striker and meet someone who is? If someone is loads better in striking it tends to shut the other guy down so he doesn't throw strikes. We've all been in the situation where you don't want to open up against someone who outclasses you because you know you are going to get lit up.

 

[lechien]

Throw your own strikes. Then the guy will come to you for the clinch.

I do not understand the weird BJJ drills where one guy can only strike and one guy can only grapple. It does not seem realistic to me. Both guys will do both in a real fight.

As someone who came to BJJ from a striking background, clinches happen all the time naturally when both guys are throwing strikes.

I guess it is to maximise the training exercise.

If you let both partners trading strikes, you are likely to have striking sparring.

It just become a MMA sparring session, while the original purpose of the exercise was to clinch and use JJ skills.

I think TS did not indicate he wanted to learn clinch for MMA.

Somethimes, in real life you can just go and rely and striking people as well.

 

[Balto]

Maybe it's to prepare the BJJ'er if they aren't a good striker and meet someone who is? If someone is loads better in striking it tends to shut the other guy down so he doesn't throw strikes. We've all been in the situation where you don't want to open up against someone who outclasses you because you know you are going to get lit up.

Yet we as grapplers laugh when we see strikers training "grappling defense" that has nothing to do with grappling in order to defend against hypothetical grapplers. It is the same the other way around.

There is no magic bullet to defend against a striker who is way better than you. If you want to learn how to defend punches, you have to learn about punches. That involves learning some striking. There is no way around it.

Thinking otherwise is the same reasoning as the Karate guy who thinks he doesn't need to learn grappling because he will just tiger claw you.

 

[Balto]

I guess it is to maximise the training exercise.

If you let both partners trading strikes, you are likely to have striking sparring.

It just become a MMA sparring session, while the original purpose of the exercise was to clinch and use JJ skills.

I think TS did not indicate he wanted to learn clinch for MMA.

Somethimes, in real life you can just go and rely and striking people as well.

The pure BJJ ways of dealing with striking are not very good from what I have seen. It is an awkward stance, chin up, etc. I mean just watch any old Gracie challenge match to see what I mean.

Just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it is optimal. You can probably beat a crappy striker going chin up, leaning back, and throwing little fake side kicks to the knee. We have lots of videos of just that. That doesn't mean it won't be easier to just learn some proper basic concepts of striking and use those to get inside instead. Plus they might actually work against good strikers.

 

[lechien]

The pure BJJ ways of dealing with striking are not very good from what I have seen. It is an awkward stance, chin up, etc. I mean just watch any old Gracie challenge match to see what I mean.

Just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it is optimal. You can probably beat a crappy striker going chin up, leaning back, and throwing little fake side kicks to the knee. We have lots of videos of just that. That doesn't mean it won't be easier to just learn some proper basic concepts of striking and use those to get inside instead. Plus they might actually work against good strikers.

I was not referring at mimicking the gracie foot stomp to clinch.

I just told TS to get his mate to put some gloves on and tell you to punch him the head.

 

[Balto]

I was not referring at mimicking the gracie foot stomp to clinch.

I just told TS to get his mate to put some gloves on and tell you to punch him the head.

Yeah that is a good start. I just don't see why he can't punch back though. I mean if it is training for a real fight, wouldn't he punch back in a real fight? It doesn't make sense to artificially limit your weapons like that if you are training for reality.

I think doing some striking training is very valuable if you want to learn how to deal with strikes in a real fight. You will learn things about stance, footwork, keeping your hands up, chin down, making angles, timing, etc.

 

[lechien]

Yeah that is a good start. I just don't see why he can't punch back though. I mean if it is training for a real fight, wouldn't he punch back in a real fight? It doesn't make sense to artificially limit your weapons like that if you are training for reality.

I think doing some striking training is very valuable if you want to learn how to deal with strikes in a real fight. You will learn things about stance, footwork, keeping your hands up, chin down, making angles, timing, etc.

like I said in previous posts, at the beginning the training was ok. partner A does the striking then partner B does the clinch and takedown etc..

then, quickly we realise that partner B would start sprawl and brawling because he did not want to get taken down.

It became impossible to take him down or clinching, you would be running around the cage.

We started to drift from the original goal of the exercise.

So we let partner B striking to set up his clinch/takedowns.

Then next thing, we realised was partner A and partner B were in a full MMA sparring mode.

We just completed drifted from the original goal of the exercise.

People were not even looking at clinching and takedowns, it was just about who had the best striking.

Once again, yes it will be awesome to get some proper striking instructions as per your instruction etc..

That when you start training MMA (which is nothing wrong).

It is like telling people to start from standing, but the goal of the that particular training is ground grappling.