Chinese Jian vs Katana

[MadSquabbles500]

I have always wondered whether the chinese developed a fencing sport. They have been fighting with bladed weapons for a very long time. Now below is a fight scene from a movie.

Hero of the East-- swords fight: Chinese Vs Japanese - YouTube

Obviously it is just a movie, and all the moves have been choreographed, but we all know that a lot of eastern martial training is basically just choreographed movements. We really do not have anything else to go by, but what is shown in those choreographed moves. This film of course takes inspiration from those choreography to create those fight scenes. So I ask, is that how the Jian would have been used?

There seems to be an interest in reviving the Euro swordfighting arts. Would it not be awesome to learn real Chinese Sword Fighting, or even Steppe Nomad Swordfighting, Berber/Arab/Persian styles?

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

There is a gentleman working in Persian swordsmanship

Historical fighting - M. M. KHORASANI

And there are many living traditions of Chinese swordsmanship such as Miao Dao

 

[supernova]

You don't ever block a full-on sword strike with your own sword. The first time that happened the jian (thinner and lighter) would have bent or been broken. No sword can handle edge to edge full speed impacts.

Jian were multipurpose blades that were made from different steels (hard and soft), layered, and differentially heat tempered. They were used more like a rapier for precision cuts and effective thrusting. Wudan and Taijijain are two martial art systems that have jian combat.

Jian are often referred to as the 'Weapon of Gentlemen' or the 'Gentlemen of Weapons' much as the rapier was seen as a 'dress sword' especially in Spain.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

But I wonder why the Chinese do not seem to have any live sparring format like kendo for the Jian Arts.

Fencing has to be one of the cheapest grassroot sports to start up, much like soccer. With soccer, all you need is a ball, and imaginary goals. For the Jian sparring, just break off two thin long relatively straight branches from a tree, and have at it. Nothing could possibly be simpler, easier or more convenient way to have some good ole fun.

The Chinese have been at bladed combat for a heck of long time. How can they be effective without practicing?

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

You can block full on sword strokes just fine, as long as you it properly. Where you block is the problem. Western swords are distally tapered. They are thicker in cross section near the hilt, and get thinner as towards the point. (This is why a 48 inch longsword weighs almost the same as a 36 inch Katana)

If you care about preserving your blade, you are going to try and block with the flat of the blade. However, the flat is structurally quite weak. Western sword blades are divided into two sections, the weak and the strong. The strong is the area of the blade closest to the hilt. It is the stiffest thickest and strongest part of the blade. On Euro blades it receives the least amount of sharpening, since it is the part of the blade that does very little cutting. If you block with the flat, you can easily block with this part of the blade. If you end up blocking with the flat on the weak, that is the last third of the blade which is thinner, more flexible you risk breaking your sword or having your enemies blade literally blow through your cover as the thin weak end deforms.

If you do not care about your blade (and in the olden days, the swords men carried to battle were often cheaper blades they could afford to lose) You can block with the edge. The edge is structurally alot stronger than the flat, since swords are designed to take all their stress on the edge when they hit something. However, the edge can be damaged easily this way. This is a bigger issue for differentially hardened blades, since damage beyond the temper line means the blade is write off.
In western swordsmanship if we block with the edge we try and block with the edge of the strong, where damage to the edge isn't a big issue.

Of course a flat static block in and of itself isn't desirable, and like in the schools of Kenjutsu that I am aware of, we prefer to combine offense and defense in a single stroke like so:

Longsword Techniques - YouTube

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Many eastern arts discourage sparring in the belief that sparring encourages bad habits and a gaming mentality. But the Chinese do spar quite a bit in some of thier swords arts..

This is Miao Dao vs. Kendo video The Miao Dao was a large two handed military sabre used into the modern era by the chinese military

Kendo vs MiaoDao???????(???????) - YouTube

 

[supernova]

You can block full on sword strokes just fine, as long as you it properly. Where you block is the problem. Western swords are distally tapered. They are thicker in cross section near the hilt, and get thinner as towards the point. (This is why a 48 inch longsword weighs almost the same as a 36 inch Katana)

If you care about preserving your blade, you are going to try and block with the flat of the blade. However, the flat is structurally quite weak. Western sword blades are divided into two sections, the weak and the strong. The strong is the area of the blade closest to the hilt. It is the stiffest thickest and strongest part of the blade. On Euro blades it receives the least amount of sharpening, since it is the part of the blade that does very little cutting. If you block with the flat, you can easily block with this part of the blade. If you end up blocking with the flat on the weak, that is the last third of the blade which is thinner, more flexible you risk breaking your sword or having your enemies blade literally blow through your cover as the thin weak end deforms.

If you do not care about your blade (and in the olden days, the swords men carried to battle were often cheaper blades they could afford to lose) You can block with the edge. The edge is structurally alot stronger than the flat, since swords are designed to take all their stress on the edge when they hit something. However, the edge can be damaged easily this way. This is a bigger issue for differentially hardened blades, since damage beyond the temper line means the blade is write off.
In western swordsmanship if we block with the edge we try and block with the edge of the strong, where damage to the edge isn't a big issue.

Of course a flat static block in and of itself isn't desirable, and like in the schools of Kenjutsu that I am aware of, we prefer to combine offense and defense in a single stroke like so:

Longsword Techniques - YouTube

I prolly don't need to tell you SDS but the video you posted, had they been using katana, would easily be confused for kenjutsu.

Everyone who thinks that swordfighting is the shit they do on Highlander or Conan the Barbarian would be surprised at what real swordfighting is like. I have great respect for the ARMA guys and their efforts to preserve/reinvent classic western swordfighting.




And as far as edge damage goes an edge to edge block is a last resort in my style. Movement, interruption, and parrying are proper defense. Some kenjutsu styles don't even teach blocking as proper technique!

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I got to visit beijing last year, and while there one of my wife's friends gave me a Chinese Jian.

I looked it up online, and its this one exactly:

Hand Forged Damascus Han Dynasty Sword

The thing has some heft to it, it's very sharp, adn seem really well put together.

There is no bend to this thing.

We visited a wushu class, and like western fencing, the practice stuff they use is all flimsy just like Epees and foils.

Definitely the technique would have to be altered to deal with a real weapon.

 

[zofilianenko]

You can block full on sword strokes just fine, as long as you it properly. Where you block is the problem. Western swords are distally tapered. They are thicker in cross section near the hilt, and get thinner as towards the point. (This is why a 48 inch longsword weighs almost the same as a 36 inch Katana)

If you care about preserving your blade, you are going to try and block with the flat of the blade. However, the flat is structurally quite weak. Western sword blades are divided into two sections, the weak and the strong. The strong is the area of the blade closest to the hilt. It is the stiffest thickest and strongest part of the blade. On Euro blades it receives the least amount of sharpening, since it is the part of the blade that does very little cutting. If you block with the flat, you can easily block with this part of the blade. If you end up blocking with the flat on the weak, that is the last third of the blade which is thinner, more flexible you risk breaking your sword or having your enemies blade literally blow through your cover as the thin weak end deforms.

If you do not care about your blade (and in the olden days, the swords men carried to battle were often cheaper blades they could afford to lose) You can block with the edge. The edge is structurally alot stronger than the flat, since swords are designed to take all their stress on the edge when they hit something. However, the edge can be damaged easily this way. This is a bigger issue for differentially hardened blades, since damage beyond the temper line means the blade is write off.
In western swordsmanship if we block with the edge we try and block with the edge of the strong, where damage to the edge isn't a big issue.

Of course a flat static block in and of itself isn't desirable, and like in the schools of Kenjutsu that I am aware of, we prefer to combine offense and defense in a single stroke like so:

Longsword Techniques - YouTube

weapons forum, where whitebelts know their shit

 

[Articplatypus]

I imagine that the Chinese had a fencing art with the jian that was very similar to western fencing in some ways. Some of the differences would be the parry's. There is a lot of parry's that are unique to Chinese martial arts that you can learn in tai chi.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I imagine that the Chinese had a fencing art with the jian that was very similar to western fencing in some ways. Some of the differences would be the parry's. There is a lot of parry's that are unique to Chinese martial arts that you can learn in tai chi.

I almost thought about hauling my live jian to Chinatown, finding a tai chi goon and saying, what up? How do you use this thing, so I could compare it to the epee style I learned.

I find its usually a touchy situation though, most of them don't like being presented with any other approach then what they learned, and they get insulted real quick. Its almost like talking catholosism to a baptist.

The other thing I found in China was the Wu Shu champs that I met, were all sport and form champs, and there wasn't any corelation to a real weapon anymore. Just like most competitive fencers I've met. They only know how to score a point, not how to deal with a real fight.

The lack of any handgaurd on that Jian is what bothers me. You're begging to get you hand mangled with that thing.

 

[Articplatypus]

I almost thought about hauling my live jian to Chinatown, finding a tai chi goon and saying, what up? How do you use this thing, so I could compare it to the epee style I learned.

I find its usually a touchy situation though, most of them don't like being presented with any other approach then what they learned, and they get insulted real quick. Its almost like talking catholosism to a baptist.

The other thing I found in China was the Wu Shu champs that I met, were all sport and form champs, and there wasn't any corelation to a real weapon anymore. Just like most competitive fencers I've met. They only know how to score a point, not how to deal with a real fight.

The lack of any handgaurd on that Jian is what bothers me. You're begging to get you hand mangled with that thing.

Yup tai chi guys are not going to be able to tell you how to use your jian. Your best bet is to learn some moves and figure out what actually works which sucks cause it would help to get some tips.

You should try to find some shaolin. they might actually be able to tell you how they think chinese sword fighting works. Also there is some two man Forms in kung fu with synchronized fights with weapons.

And jian handguards suck.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

there is some two man Forms in kung fu with synchronized fights with weapons.

That's what blows about Kung Fu in general. Fights aren't synchronized; without a prior agreement, and that will go out the window in a pinch.

I want a system of training to react to the real world, not dance moves. I'm too insubordinate to do katas and forms and shit like that there, that's why I switched from Kendo to Epee.

When I was in Beijing asking the Kung fu champ this and that about using Jians, he kept wanting to know why I wanted to know such things, (how to actually use it!) Then wanted to know what style I claimed to know, (my wife was translating, but not very good) I demonstrated a straight arm, a disengae, and a lunge. He laughed and said that's far too few moves, wehave hundreds! Hundreds --- (of forms and moves to get defuddled over if you had to use them I say).

It was fun watching their class though, it really is art. Far different, philosophically from Japanese Dojos. A special glimpse into something bygone.

 

[Articplatypus]

That's what blows about Kung Fu in general. Fights aren't synchronized; without a prior agreement, and that will go out the window in a pinch.

Only thing i could think of that might actually show you something.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Only thing i could think of that might actually show you something.

Yeah, almost certainly, or maybe become drinking buddies with one of them Kung Fu dudes.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

There is such a sport. Its called duan bin, or short weaponry. It was created during the Republic but largely died out and today only Gansu has such a sport, along with Hong Kong and Taiwan.

http://v.ku6.com/show/gBdOGvvPhhBCrOAfd9WLNQ...html

I trained in it for a little bit in Lanzhou, it is like Kendo but only one hand, its like fencing but with cutting and hacking allowed.

the sport is not at all popular however, even less than Shuai jiao, which already lacked popularity.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

McAfee says that link is no good, do you have anything else we can look at?