BJJ takedowns vs. Wrestling takedowns??

[Title Fight Productions]

So i have recently been taking BJJ and am loving it!!!!! I have some sub grappling/Catch training and also really enjoyed that.

i am interested in peoples thoughts and ideas on the diffrence i have noticed between the wrestling takedown (usually front knee hits the mat first) and what i have seen and been taught of BJJ's takedowns (usually rear knee hits the mat first.) I also recently watch this clip of Rickson from choke and at the 35 second mark YouTube - Rickson Gracie Ginastica/Yoga he does some "duck walks" on the beach and its his rear knee that hits the ground first, then he transitions into the front knee hitting first in the duckwalks.

Just wanted to get some imput from some of our better BJJ guys and there thoughts and the reasoning behind this rear knee vs. front knee issue im having.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[Dirty Deeds]

Rear/front knee contact makes no difference. The type of takedown you are attempting determines which knee should hit first. I train with guys who reward me for taking them down with chokes and armbars, granted, I am giving up less and less submissions. Overall, BJJ players takedowns are not as strong as wrestlers, if there is more emphasis put on controlling the position that the match goes to the ground in, there would be an evolution in the sport. Imagine if Damien Maia, Robert Drysdale or Roger Gracie could take people down the way that Kenny Monday, Kurt Angle and Cael Sanderson do, we have a whole new type of beast.

 

[DaRuckus337]

BJJ guys are often trying to do 'wrestling' takedowns, they're just not doing them properly a lot of the time due to lack of practice. That's just the truth. In any event, don't think of it in terms of which knee hits when so much. What you need to focus on is a lead-leg penetration step and a level change, followed by getting the right grips and head pressure, followed by working to angle/turning the corner, followed by getting back to a strong position and (ideally) off your knees altogether so you can drive with authority to finish the takedown. Being on yours knees for any appreciable length of time is not a part of any good takedown.

 

[YeahBee]

Disclaimer: I have no serious wrestling training and only a few months of BJJ (but some years in judo)

The way I was taught the doubleleg in judo and the way we have drilled it in BJJ is vastly different

In judo I just blasted them deep level change. way more of a tackle to simplify it, in BJJ the coach emphasizes the angle change clearing the legs away and a more upright stance to not end up in guard, something that mattered little in judo

 

[nefti]

the only thing that matters when doing singles and doubles is to be carefull where you put your head so you don't get guillotined.

 

[skey91***]

If you are just getting ino=to wrestling here are a two threads I made a while ago with good wrestling technique videos and just some awesome matches and highlights.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/wrestling-technique-website-videos-updated-zeke-jones-944254/

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/mother-all-wrestling-libraries-videos-updated-952174/

 

[YeahBee]

the only thing that matters when doing singles and doubles is to be carefull where you put your head so you don't get guillotined.

I kinda like sticking my head there, more to lift/turn with and I get the penetrating I need and when it hits the ground I can jam my shoulder in their throat and work the pass:icon_lol:

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

All the takedowns ive been taught in BJJ have the front knee hitting the mat first, dunno where you got that back knee assumption from.

You post between the legs with your front foot, penetrate forward to make them lose their balance, bring your back foot forward to give you lifting power/push power then do the takedown. Back knee never touches the mat.

 

[georgejjr]

The main point in whether your front knee hits the ground is your opponent's stance. In general, in freestyle and folkstyle wrestling the stance is low, so you have to go down to the ground. In BJJ and judo (and MMA) the stance tends to be more upright, so you can come in higher.

It also varies with weight division, partly because of the strength/weight ratio, partly because heavyweights tend not to crouch as low as lightweights.

A good person to watch for this is GSP, you can find clips of him doing a double leg in grappling, and in MMA ... note the difference. Same for Hughes and Lesnar.

 

[Il Wop-O]

In our BJJ, our singles and doubles are straight out of freestyle, so I don't know where this "back knee hits first" comes from. With us, it's this;
Penetrating step
Lead knee causes level change
Establish the grip & drag rear foot up
Cut the angle, pull & drive.

Single leg - head inside, run the pipe, etc.
Double leg - head outside, sweep the legs, look up the back, run sideways, etc.

We try to be a well rounded gym, so we use different sources for takedowns. BJJ trips w/ body locks, Judo for throws, sweeps & reaps, Greco for throws & sweeps, Freestyle for singles, doubles, switches & whizzer-based maneuvers.

Mix it all. Take that which you can make work.

 

[Gidselgrisen]

In 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - Theory and Technique' by Royler and Renzo it says that in BJJ you should to avoid getting your knees to the ground at all when doing a double leg, because it is a bad habit when you need to use it in a street fight.

BJJ is evolving to a sport - the Gracies intended it as self defence.

 

[Jaxx]

BJJ takedowns = oxymoron.

 

[Padilla**]

I've seen cases where the timing of the actual level change is quite different. A lot of times, a BJJ artist will drop at the very last second, and then just end up popping back up because he didn't have enough space or time to grab a leg or waist. I don't think that it's entirely bad, but it would often be smarter to change levels early, and then penetrate your opponents legs by knee sliding into him. That's how most wrestlers do it.

 

[TheCuttlefish]

In 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - Theory and Technique' by Royler and Renzo it says that in BJJ you should to avoid getting your knees to the ground at all when doing a double leg, because it is a bad habit when you need to use it in a street fight.

BJJ is evolving to a sport - the Gracies intended it as self defence.

Not if your knee lands on your opponent's foot.

 

[ukeyr]

there are no takedowns in jj

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

BJJ takedowns = oxymoron.

I was thinking the same thing. Every takedown in bjj was either (1) part of the original set of techniques and therefore judo-based, or (2) added when Rolls began cross-training in wrestling. I say this as a bjj practitioner.

To the original question, there is a lot of debate in all the grappling arts (including wrestling) as to whether the knee should touch the ground at all in a double leg. I wrestling I learned to do the classic freestyle wrestling shot, and that's what I use. However one of my bjj instructors who is also a bb in judo taught me to do more of a morote gari without my knee shooting in.

 

[devante]

BJJ guys are often trying to do 'wrestling' takedowns, they're just not doing them properly a lot of the time due to lack of practice. That's just the truth. In any event, don't think of it in terms of which knee hits when so much. What you need to focus on is a lead-leg penetration step and a level change, followed by getting the right grips and head pressure, followed by working to angle/turning the corner, followed by getting back to a strong position and (ideally) off your knees altogether so you can drive with authority to finish the takedown. Being on yours knees for any appreciable length of time is not a part of any good takedown.

this

 

[fourfif**]

BJJ guys are often trying to do 'wrestling' takedowns, they're just not doing them properly a lot of the time due to lack of practice. That's just the truth. In any event, don't think of it in terms of which knee hits when so much. What you need to focus on is a lead-leg penetration step and a level change, followed by getting the right grips and head pressure, followed by working to angle/turning the corner, followed by getting back to a strong position and (ideally) off your knees altogether so you can drive with authority to finish the takedown. Being on yours knees for any appreciable length of time is not a part of any good takedown.

well said.

 

[phillys-finest]

Not trying to offend anyone but the double leg takedowns you see in BJJ are BAD. I get frustrated when i see guys go down from them. But obviously you can tell by now im a wrestler who cross trains, so im biased. BJJ is extremely slow compared to wrestling also. I'd be willing to say that if you took one random wrestler from a D-1 or D-2 school you couldn't find one BJJ guy who could shoot and take them down soley from a double leg. Ofcourse its probably happened and some guy from this thread will come and tell how a champion wrestler got owned his first time in BJJ lol

 

[fourfif**]

Here's a running double off of an underhook set up.

YouTube - Underhook Double

It's of the non mat touch variety, which ideally you would just blast through somebody and dump them on their back. This can happen if you set it up really well and penetrate really deep, and/or turn the corner and run it really hard OR in mma, if someone commits to a big punch.

Realistically though your opponent is going to sprawl, and you are going to end up turning the corner and running that double. Sometimes your knee will touch, but as coach Adams YouTube - Wrestling Instruction Penetration Technique by, Carl Adams
(originally posted by knox) subscribes to the "knee shoulder" rule, i.e., keep your head up and make sure you're knee and shoulder are aligned during your shot. It becomes harder to do when you drop levels but it's still a good rule to follow.